Could your boiler help save the planet?

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Could your boiler help save the planet?
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tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 4:21 pm Post subject: Could your boiler help save the planet?

With Russia signing up to the Kyoto protocol, it might appear that the world is taking seriously the issue of global warming. But an investigation by the BBC's World Business Report has uncovered major doubts about the impact of many so-called "green" initiatives. Critics argue that many moves could actually end up doing more harm than good.

Millions of people flocked to the cinema this year to see one apocalyptic vision of the future.

The Day After Tomorrow showed Manhattan struck by a giant tidal-wave - caused by climate change. In the real world there is evidence, even if rather less dramatic, that the world is warming.

So what is being done?

Always eager to be seen to be doing something, our politicians are pushing through new energy efficiency measures. But are they the right regulations?

Green initiatives

Insulation, double glazing, solar panels and new types of boilers are just some of the things being subsidised or even made compulsory - all in an effort to cut down on energy use.

But World Business Report has found that many of these supposedly green initiatives could actually be making things worse.

If you're talking about sustainability in building, then the most sustainable thing is to keep what you've got
Jeff Howell, construction expert

And it is our homes - that eat up 20% of Britain's energy - which are the key target of these new rules.

Gas boilers sit in most houses in Europe and are the engine room of our homes. They provide us with our central heating and warm water.

From April though, one type of boiler is about to become mandatory in Britain.

It is a so-called 'condensing' boiler, which grabs the excess heat that old boilers used to waste.

'More complicated'

However, Jeff Howell, a former builder and now author on construction issues, disagrees fundamentally with this new law.

"At its most basic, a boiler is simply a kettle. It is a cast iron vessel, with a burner underneath it. We've had boilers like this for 30, 40, 50 years. And in some cases those original 50 year old boilers are still working very well," he says.

"In order to get this extra alleged 15% of efficiency out of the new boilers, they become far more complicated. They are full of sensors, electronics, gauges and electronic ignition systems which makes them so complicated that they require a university engineering degree almost in order to maintain them."

Mr Howell is convinced these new boilers will fail quicker and use up more energy in their manufacture, maintenance and disposal, than might be saved during the boiler's working life.

"New condensing boilers have to be maintained by a skilled engineer at least every six months. Every time the engineer comes, he drives his diesel van. He sits in the traffic trying to get to your house. These are all extra energy costs involved," he says.

"Anything that has electronics in it is going to require more energy costs in dismantling and disposal of it. Printed circuit boards all contain toxic materials, for example, and you'd have to spend extra energy in separating out the cadmium and the cobalt and the other heavy metals."

"If you're talking about sustainability in building, then the most sustainable thing is to keep what you've got," he says.

'Good idea'

Not surprisingly, the German firm Vaillant - one of the biggest makers of condensing boilers - does not share Mr Howell's views.

"If you were to ask any manufacturer, you would typically get the response that annual servicing of any gas appliance is a very good idea to ensure it's operating at peak efficiency and to ensure there are no issues developing during the course of the intervening year," says Vaillant's marketing director, John Collins.

"Condensing boilers don't require any more maintenance than any other type of boiler. Typical servicing requirements are exactly the same for both. And the only difference really with a high-efficiency condensing boiler is it has a condensing drain."

"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."

"As a company we are very much geared to looking to the future and looking to rationalise the use of energy by every possible technology."

Story from BBC NEWS:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/business/4026139.stm

Published: 2004/11/21 20:33:47 GMT

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28238
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 4:36 pm Post subject:
Typical example of the poor consumer being left bewildered, and unable to judge. I used to drive diesel and think I was being good, then I was told the the particle emissions were worse jema

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 4:43 pm Post subject:
Exactly it's almost an impossibility to know what to do for the best

Bugs

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 4:54 pm Post subject:

It's an impossible nightmare trying to find out which ones are reliable as well.

My sister's is...ooh I don't know how old and her plumber said to leave it there as it's less likely to break down than any new one. We had a complete nightmare with A Certain UK Gas Company and wound up having our first (ever - the house had no heating when we moved in) boiler removed for two months while we tried to track down a reliable make and fitter.

Which? does a survey of the most reliable makes of various electrical items but the only info we could find on boilers was efficiency. As the article says it's not very efficient if the thing keeps breaking down and has to be thrown away after a few years.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 5:45 pm Post subject:
Thats true - nothing is effcient if you have to keep buying a new (better, naturally) one. Why can't people make things to last. Now that would be good use of goverment money. Which washing machine lasts the longest, and is therfore most efficient. Soon get them vying to make things that a work and b last more that a couple of years!

Treacodactyl
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 9:06 pm Post subject:

The info about some of the new efficient boiler is also a little misleading as they are only that efficient if left to run for long periods of time (so I've been told by a couple of people who work with boilers but were not trying to sell me anything).

That's one of the things that annoys me a little with the energy efficiency stuff, the first thing they should be saying is cut down on the amount of heat we need. Do we need to heat every room, do we need to light the whole back garden etc... Boilers and large appliances should have 10 year guarantees as standard so things are more likely to last.

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 9:15 pm Post subject:
I asked the guy who did our plumbing, who had no axe to grind since we were getting a new boiler whatever; his view was that the difference in efficiency was negligible. (But we have a combi, so it may be different if you have a hot-water tank to consider.) Cheers, Sean

Mat S

Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 282
Location: Leicester

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 04 10:13 pm Post subject:

I've discussed this issue with a mate-of-a-mate who's a central heating engineer. He won't fit a condensing boiler to his house or that of his friends because of the extra maintainance and chance of failure. Said that the exhaust gases (which are what is condensed) and the condensate are acidic which over time does for some of the pipework.

From an engineering background, I'd have a simple boiler over a complex one anyday.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 04 10:30 am Post subject:
Has anyone got experience of the new combined heat & power boilers that have just come on the market?

mrutty

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1578

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 04 2:05 pm Post subject:

Just had to phone my father for advise on this. He says that the service charge should be the same regardless of type and that all types should be serviced once a year unless it's a high heat oil burner or a non domestic.

On the new boilers turn the burner down from 6 to 3 or 4 as this is a bit like heating a small saucepan on full heat, a lot of the energy can be lost around the sides. The turning down does mean it will take longer to heat the water hence they appear to be more cost effective if switched on for longer.

We had a new 'condensing' boiler fitted by a local heating engineer as my normal one was away. With no prompting my normal engineer came to look at the new boiler and it's the same one he's getting

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 04 8:47 pm Post subject:
One thing I should point out is that the condensate drain on a condensing boiler is often routed through the wall to an outside drain. In the boiler we had removed the drain pipe sloped at 45 deg. This froze solid a couple of times even when lagged. After a little research I found it is advised to fit them to an inside drain so I would advice this is done if you live in a cold area.

lazzasurf

Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: wolverhampton

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 05 12:22 am Post subject:

i have fitted a couple and they are no harder to fit, service or repair than a normal system or combi boiler.. infact they do not need stripping down to service like a older boiler, all we have to do is test the products of combustion with a taragon tester by sticking a probe in the flue for 5 mins. its only if the products of combustion exceed a set limit will it need stripping down for a "hoovering"..

taragon test = �60.
taragon test then needing a service=�100.

its 1 big scam to keep jobs for the boys..

as for the post above with a freezing condense pipe, i think the pipe is the wrong size, have a word with the installer..

energybook

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 10
Location: UK

Posted: Sat May 07, 05 6:18 am Post subject:

Not sure I agree with many of the comments above. My company ALHCO works for social landlords across the UK. we service and maintain applinaces in 100,000 homes. Here are a couple of views.

All landlords have to have their gas instalations checked by law every year - this is because people were dying of carbon monoxide poisening. whilst we are there we service the boiler and this will aften improve efficiency, etc. We also advise on how to use the system, set the clock and thermostats, etc. Al this lowers the energy consumption.

Would you leave your car un serviced and use a twenyty year old car if you were using it almost 365 days a year?

The new boilers are much more effiecient, smaller, etc. They will last longer and do not contain asbestos as the old ones did.

Many people in this county are fuel poor - they can't ford to heat their homes because their old boiler or electric heating is too expensive to run. Modern high effieciency boilers help this problem - why? because they are much much cheaper to run.

Pop into your local currys and have a look at the fuel effiecncies of new ovens and tell me that the old ones are better.

The only argument against this is if the old boiler - max life 15 years, is working well then perhaps the whole environmental impact of replacing it before it gives up the ghost is more. Check out the energy saving trust to find out more.

My company website talks a little more about legislation etc. if you want a look

www.alhco.co.uk

Regards

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Sat May 07, 05 7:57 am Post subject:

A few comments about replacing the boilers based on the experience of friends and myself.

Often your old gas boiler cannot be insured after it is 10 years old by companies claiming they cannot get the parts. Found out parts are freely available and should be for 15 - 20 years.

If you replace a boiler every 10 years you are often quoted �2,000 or more! A power flush costing about �500 is often recommended which IMHO is often not needed.

If you can keep your boiler going for 20 years then you have at least �200 more to spend on fuel each year. Are modern boilers that more efficient? You would have to be spending �1,000 a year on gas.

Yes you would be saving some gas but then how much energy has been used to make a new boiler, open cast mining for copper & iron etc?

I have also had to have a modern boiler replaced after a year as it was badly designed, installed and rubbish!

Which leads me to another point, why are there no details published about reliability of makes and models? You can get plenty of details about how one is more efficient by 0.1% but frankly that's useless if the boiler will need to be replaced sooner than the less efficient one.

However, I'm very interested in more green energy so I'll be taking a look at your site.

energybook

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 10
Location: UK

Posted: Mon May 09, 05 3:30 pm Post subject:

Many thanks for the reply. I agree that it is often very expensive to replace the boiler. But you do not have to get all the money back in one year. You are just spending the money a year or two earlier. So for a �2000 system and 20 year life you only need to save �100 per year - plus the savings on the boiler not breaking down - or otherwise!!

On spare parts you are right most parts are available and it's the economics of fixing it rather than the availability - again it's a bit like old cars. The bits are there but you have to go to a specialist and not every one stocks them.

My company looks after about 100,000 central heating systems many are very old!!!!

On reliability it is a little difficult as other parts fail such as the pump and controls - sometimes they are inside the boiler sometimes they are not.

I will look into whether we can publish some stats on breakdowns - I guess the boiler makers will not be happy.

Green energy is the answer!!

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