Is there really such a thing as organic honey?

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Is there really such a thing as organic honey?
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Mary-Jane

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 18397
Location: The Fishing Strumpet is from Ceredigion in West Wales

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 4:57 pm Post subject: Is there really such a thing as organic honey?
Sorry if that sounds a dim question, but a bee keeper I know said that to label honey as 'organic' was very misleading because you can never completely guarantee that the bees haven't swarmed elsewhere on to land that isn't certified as organic. Seemed to make sense to me. Any views?

sally_in_wales
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 20809
Location: sunny wales

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 5:07 pm Post subject:
I dimly remember it being acceptable to claim your honey is organic if all the land for something like 4(?) miles around the hives is officially organically farmed- but whether you can physically achieve that anywhere in Britain is another matter

Cathryn

Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19856
Location: Ceredigion

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 5:08 pm Post subject:
You're bored aren't you? And I thought you had finished marking. So, the organic debate. Presumably there is a limit to how many miles bees can fly and if everywhere within that limit is organic then... (I don't know but I suspect that this thread might develop. )

sean
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 5:09 pm Post subject:
I think that bees will fly up to three miles.

jamanda
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Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 35057
Location: Devon

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 5:38 pm Post subject:
Yes - so hives on Dartmoor where the bees have only foraged over the heather moor which is classed as organic can be labelled as such. (Though you'd be hard put to find any inorganic honey if you ask me)

gil
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Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 6:32 pm Post subject:

sally_in_wales wrote:

I dimly remember it being acceptable to claim your honey is organic if all the land for something like 4(?) miles around the hives is officially organically farmed- but whether you can physically achieve that anywhere in Britain is another matter

Most likely places of origin then will be large Highland heather moorland estates, and there's also an organic estate in Cumbria that is big enough to qualify, where they've sited their hives in the middle so as to have 4 miles all around that is their land.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 7:59 pm Post subject:

Jamanda wrote:

Yes - so hives on Dartmoor where the bees have only foraged over the heather moor which is classed as organic can be labelled as such.

In the UK & EU the land has to be registered organic.
Hives set in the middle of dartmoor although technicaly probably 99.9% organic cant be sold as such.
Also the colonies can only find keep when the heather is in bloom the rest of the year they would need to be kept on lowland where it is almost impossible to find a large enough area thats organic.

Jamanda wrote:

(Though you'd be hard put to find any inorganic honey if you ask me)

If your colonies are within 2 or 3 miles of crops such as OSR, maize & sugar beet then definately not.
It has been proven that insecticides used on such crops have been found in pollen & nectar & subsequently honey.
Even pastoral land as I have around me doesn't count as all the livestock are wormed & sheep dipped etc.
Also the treatments & feed used in the colonies have to be recognised by an authorising body.
If you treat conventionally for varroa & nosema & feed sugar then even in the middle of an organic wilderness your stuck.

sean
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 8:15 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Jamanda wrote:

(Though you'd be hard put to find any inorganic honey if you ask me)

She's talking chemically organic. It's the Organic (food-labelling)/organic (chemistry) divide again.

VM

Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1748
Location: Lincolnshire

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 09 11:52 pm Post subject:
On which note, what do you make of 'organic salt'? Seems wrong to me.

Mary-Jane

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 18397
Location: The Fishing Strumpet is from Ceredigion in West Wales

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 6:49 am Post subject:

Jamanda wrote:

(Though you'd be hard put to find any inorganic honey if you ask me)

Yes, I wondered that too...

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 7:17 am Post subject:

Mary-Jane wrote:

Jamanda wrote:

(Though you'd be hard put to find any inorganic honey if you ask me)

Yes, I wondered that too...

Traces of insecticides, fungicides & herbicides as well as other pullutants are found in honey samples all over the country.
It's easier to say a chicken or lamb or cauliflower is or isn't organic as the grower/farmer has control of the animal/plant & the inputs.
I have no control over my neighbours land & if they spray for aphids or botrytis & my bees forage over their land then traces of those chemicals will be found in the honey.
You wouldn't call sweetcorn that has been treated with a neonicotinoid insecticide seed treatment organic, & its proven that such chemicals are found in samples of honey from colonies nearby.
Albeit small traces & probably harmless in such quantities but 'organic' is a term that indicates purity & free from such chemicals so I would say it's almost impossible to find organic honey in the UK.
Wish I could.

beean

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 254

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 8:03 am Post subject:
What about foundation? Wax comb can have plenty of chemicals found in it (Apistan being a past fave!) so couldn't foundation? Legally you can only call it organic if the forage is organic, as mentioned already.

cassy

Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 1047
Location: South West Scotland

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 9:24 am Post subject:
I guess if you wanted to buy "organic" honey in order to minimise the risk pesticide/fungicide contamination then the Demeter standard would help you identify beekeepers who kept bees more naturally.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 9:29 am Post subject:
Do I get extra marks for suggesting organic prawns is a load of old billocks, too?

Midland Spinner

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 2931
Location: Under a green roof

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 09 9:42 am Post subject:
I have some shampoo that lists "organic seaweed" as an ingredient.

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