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nora
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 1539
Location: West Yorkshire
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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Res
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
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Haddock
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Marburg, Germany
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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 Posted: Mon May 09, 05 7:34 pm Post subject: |
 
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| Res wrote: |
| dieselveg.com wrote: |
| And so that's how dirty, stinking, polluting diesel fuel became the fuel for the Diesel engine and vegetable oil as greener cleaner less toxic fuel supply was forgotten. |
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You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product!
Diesel invented a compression ignition engine, which *could* be powered by a locally sourced (ie German-grown IIRC) fuel.
Diesel's initial concept was relatively mechanically simple - and inefficient.
It is historically inaccurate to suggest that there was a massive petrol industry before WW1, and that "diesel fuel" was a waste by-product. Historically, I think petrol was an exotic by-product of the mineral (rather than whale) lamp oil industry!
Just as petrol engine technology (and fuels) evolved, so too did compression ignition engines and fuels.
The phenominal fuel efficiency of modern diesel engines is achieved at the cost of complexity and precision engineering.
Plain Veg Oil sadly isn't a good fuel for such an engine. Apart from starting difficulties, there's also a problem with build up of sticky 'gums'. Put crudely, you might run an old tractor on it, but please don't try it in an Audi A2... At the very least until you have stuck on �500 of extra parts...
But even before WW1, it was cheaper to pump the stuff out of the ground than to grow it. The reason veg oil was abandoned (even for tractors) was simple market economics, nothing more.
| dieselveg.com wrote: |
We now sell waste modified vegetable oil at 66p per litre including fuel tax and VAT, you will of course get a tax paid invoice.
...this is collection only as delivery costs currently outweigh savings over diesel... |
OK, but note that the Chancellor is providing a 20p/litre subsidy - without which the cost would be **exactly** the same as fossil diesel! (Remember the fossil diesel is delivered locally and you don't have to make a journey to collect it!)
Therefore starting with a 'free' feedstock (waste veg oil), even with oil at $50, the actual (pre-tax) price of the fuel itself is the same! Either someone's ripping someone off or the filtering and "modification" (whazzat?) costs more than delivery to fuel station, refining, sea transport and buying the oil at $50 a barrel...
And the economic justification for buying a conversion kit would disappear if the tax break were withdrawn.
| Res wrote: |
| With the price at the pumps at around .90p/ltr and rising, I think I will be considering a collection myself. |
Its a long way from Harlow to Wolverhampton. What with the conversion cost as well, you're going to have to do a whopping mileage, and buy and transport large quantities on each trip - even 200 litres of their waste oil is going to be �132 - to avoid this being rather costly.
Now biodiesel is a completely different item to Plain (Waste) Veg Oil.
Its a very good fuel. It should be ideal for that Audi A2.
It doesn't gum up the works - in fact the opposite. It flushes out any muck thats there - so when changing to 100% bio, be prepared to change your fuel filters a couple of times... It produces less soot than fossil diesel, and much less than Plain Veg Oil, and starting isn't a problem.
And for a modern car, no conversion is required!
If it was built after 1996, it *must* be able to run ULS diesel, which could actually be 10% bio... so you should be fine!
Look up your local source on https://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk
Summary: Pour cooking oil straight into your unmodified diesel's tank in the supermarket car park and you are asking for trouble - both from the Customs & Excise wanting tax, and in starting the engine and, long term, gumming up the fuel injectors.
Biodiesel: no problem with 1996 or later vehicles. If you homebrew it, you should pay the tax to Customs...
one spelling corrected
Last edited by dougal on Mon May 09, 05 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Andrea
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
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Andrea
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
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Andrea
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
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Lloyd
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 2699
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 05 11:52 pm Post subject: This may assist....Bit technical in places, but definitive . |
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How do biodiesel emissions compare to petroleum diesel?
Biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the Clean Air Act. The use of biodiesel in a conventional diesel engine results in substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter compared to emissions from diesel fuel. In addition, the exhaust emissions of sulfur oxides and sulfates (major components of acid rain) from biodiesel are essentially eliminated compared to diesel.
Of the major exhaust pollutants, both unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides are ozone or smog forming precursors. The use of biodiesel results in a substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons. Emissions of nitrogen oxides are either slightly reduced or slightly increased depending on the duty cycle of the engine and testing methods used. Based on engine testing, using the most stringent emissions testing protocols required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives in the US, the overall ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions from biodiesel was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.
Can biodiesel help mitigate �global warming�?
A 1998 biodiesel lifecycle study, jointly sponsored by the US Department of Energy and the US Department of Agriculture, concluded biodiesel reduces net carbon dioxide
emissions by 78 percent compared to petroleum diesel. This is due to biodiesel�s closed carbon cycle. The CO� released into the atmosphere when biodiesel is burned is recycled by growing plants, which are later processed into fuel.
Is biodiesel better for human health than petroleum diesel?
Scientific research confirms that biodiesel exhaust has a less harmful impact on human health than petroleum diesel fuel. Biodiesel emissions have decreased levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) and nitrited PAH compounds that have been identified as potential cancer causing compounds. Test results indicate PAH compounds were reduced by 75 to 85 percent, with the exception of benzo(a)anthracene, which was reduced by roughly 50 percent. Targeted nPAH compounds were also reduced dramatically with biodiesel fuel, with 2-nitrofluorene and 1-nitropyrene reduced by 90 percent, and the rest of the nPAH compounds reduced to only trace levels.
Does biodiesel cost more than other alternative fuels?
When reviewing the high costs associated with other alternative fuel systems, many fleet managers have determined biodiesel is their least-cost-strategy to comply with state and federal regulations. Use of biodiesel does not require major engine modifications. That means operators keep their fleets, their spare parts inventories, their refueling stations and their skilled mechanics. The only thing that changes is air quality.
Do I need special storage facilities?
In general, the standard storage and handling procedures used for petroleum diesel can be used for biodiesel. The fuel should be stored in a clean, dry, dark environment. Acceptable storage tank materials include aluminum, steel, fluorinated polyethylene, fluorinated polypropylene and teflon. Copper, brass, lead, tin, and zinc should be avoided.
Can I use biodiesel in my existing diesel engine?
Biodiesel works in any diesel engine with few or no modifications to the engine or the fuel system. Biodiesel has a solvent effect that may release deposits accumulated on tank walls and pipes from previous diesel fuel storage. The release of deposits may clog filters initially and precautions should be taken. Ensure that only fuel meeting the biodiesel specification (D 6751) is used.
Where can I purchase biodiesel?
Biodiesel is available anywhere in the US. The National Biodiesel Board (NBB) maintains a list of registered fuel suppliers. A current list is available on the biodiesel web site at www.biodiesel.org or by calling NBB at (800) 841-5849.
Who can answer my questions about biodiesel?
NBB maintains the largest library of biodiesel information in the US. Information can be requested by visiting the biodiesel web site at www.biodiesel.org, by emailing the NBB at [email protected], or by calling NBB�s toll free number (800) 841-5849. |
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Res
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
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Blue Peter
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2400
Location: Milton Keynes
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 05 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Res wrote: |
| dougal wrote: |
| You might almost think dieselveg were pushing a product! |
Does sound like you are to?
Or is it the knowledge your selling? |
For the avoidance of all doubt - I am not selling anything.
I am not, and have never been, involved in the fuel business.
The nearest I come is to having worked, twenty years ago, for a company selling a non-toxic anti-fouling product to the offshore industry. Oh and I have a brother who works abroad as a trader in bunker oil for shipping.
Currently, circumstances mean I don't even drive a diesel.
But I do have a science degree, and longstanding interest in both cars and renewable energy, and studied this area a couple of years ago, purely out of personal interest.
This thread was on biodiesel courses until hijacked by a story about pouring cooking oil into a Merc in a german supermarket car park.
I have sought to explain WHY that is NOT such a good idea for most folk in the UK. And WHY biodiesel is a better solution for anyone driving a post-1996 vehicle and paying their taxes.
"Dieselveg" are selling their approach. And I think it would be financial and ecological nonsense for someone to travel from Harlow to Wolverhampton for fuel - I hope I have explained WHY, rather than simply stating an opinion and trying to "play the man rather than the ball".
As an entirely seperate aspect, I lose respect for any sales literature (such as dieselveg's site) that states or implies that ISO 9001 applies to product quality - that plainly demonstrates a lack of understanding of what one is talking about (or possibly a desire to mislead). ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about how the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is! |
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Res
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
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Haddock
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Marburg, Germany
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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