people don't like dead things with big brown eyes

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macatsuma

Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 77
Location: elland, west yorkshire

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 9:04 am Post subject:

its the stunning bit thats contentious, some folk are averse to the beast being "unstunned" when its killed, but as previously mentioned on numerous threads its more to do with many peoples inability to connect a beast with the square lump of meat on their plate, my brother was a vegan for five years after spending one summer at university working in a pie and sausage factory in the holidays and still finds it difficult to talk about. If there was one thing that the godawful "Full on Food" on beeb2 did it was the confront your meat piece (and Hugh FW of course).
In both Kosher and Halal butchery there is, to my knowledge, great respect for the animal and prayers are said for the animal.

Bugs

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 9:13 am Post subject:

macatsuma wrote:

If there was one thing that the godawful "Full on Food" on beeb2 did it was the confront your meat piece (and Hugh FW of course)

I'd expected that bit to be awful and it was in fact, remarkably effective and unglib...there must be a better word than unglib. I wished I'd taped it to show to a lot of people I know.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 9:16 am Post subject:

I think it comes down to whether you think a swift cut to the neck, done properly, and a swift death is accpetable or whether the animal should be stunned and unconsious before the cut and swift death follws. I've just clicked the Halal advert and the website refers to some reasearch in Germany which says Hala slaughter causes less stress. "well the would say that woudln't they". However I think stunned animal will be easier to handle and wont be stressed and difficult to manage as its hoiked upside down to have its throat cut. But in the right conditions and done properly I don't think there's much in it and slaghterhouse management and throughput have a greater effect on animal stress.

These are just my spoutings and I have no direct experience.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 10:18 am Post subject:

macatsuma wrote:

In both Kosher and Halal butchery there is, to my knowledge, great respect for the animal and prayers are said for the animal.

If done properly, yes there is indeed great respect for the animal, but as in all life that's not necessarily the case.

I know we've been through this all before but really it's about the whole life of the animal, not just it's final few minutes. Frankly if people were kept in the conditions that some farmed animals are they'd probably be grateful for any kind of death.

One of those really BIG issues.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 10:33 am Post subject:
Agree, like all things there are good and bad Halal & Kosher butchers/slaughterhouses. It's unfair to label them all as barbaric, some of them will be excellent.

footprints

Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: North Wales

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 12:55 pm Post subject: Humane?

When I was a young-un, perhaps 13 or 14 I used to pluck chickens during the run up to christmas . I cannot remember what I was paid now.
My friend and I (the farmers son) used to sit in a small outhouse near the poultry shed.
Under instruction from the farmers wife, we sat for hrs plucking the warm carcases of hens that had finished laying. The hens were killed in the following manner. With the hen held between your legs and its head pulled forward, you would with the point of a very sharp knife cut the vein behind what I always thought was the hens ear. You would then just hold the hen firmly intil it had bled to death.

Does anybody use this method now ?
Apparently the meat sets better if the animal is bled.

The butchers that kill on the farm use a captive bolt pistol for this very reason. The animal would eventually die from the head shot, but the butcher bleeds the animal while its heart is still beating, and this is what actually kills it.

judith

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 2:03 pm Post subject:
Footprints, I have a neighbour who uses that method. I have to say I wasn't at all comfortable watching it - it just seemed to take forever. You definitely have to bleed the chicken, though, otherwise the meat is a very odd colour. I just prefer the animal to be dead before I do it, even at the risk of not bleeding it out quite as efficently.

footprints

Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: North Wales

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 3:16 pm Post subject: Humane

Judith wrote:

Footprints, I have a neighbour who uses that method. I have to say I wasn't at all comfortable watching it - it just seemed to take forever. You definitely have to bleed the chicken, though, otherwise the meat is a very odd colour. I just prefer the animal to be dead before I do it, even at the risk of not bleeding it out quite as efficently.

I know of a home killed bullock(when it was allowed) that had a load of meat spoil because it had been killed too quickly, and didn't bleed out properly.

To vegetarians, these details must disgust. I'm not a vegetarian and I'm not happy.

There are other things though that I class as cruel and unnecessary.
For example. Scottish beef commands a premium. So, cattle are sent from our part of the world to live in Scotland for a few weeks, so that they can be killed and legally marketed as Scottish beef. Perhaps this view is a litle simplistic, but to me it seems that a little more suffering is inflicted in the name of a few pence more per kilo.
Could long distance live transport be stopped? Yes, it will probably happen around the time that the french stop force feeding the geece for pate.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28237
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 05 4:32 pm Post subject:

macatsuma wrote:

I cop out on the Halal slaughter issue with the excuse that until the general barbarity in meat farming is addressed, then choosing to focus on the few seconds/minutes of slaughter is pretty irrelevent.

macatsuma

Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 77
Location: elland, west yorkshire

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 10:00 am Post subject:

bugs asked

Let us know how you get on (and remember we don't know, so you can be astoundingly successful and we'll believe you )

Unfortunately i was a resoundingly rubbish as usual, 3 overweight yorkshiremen and an equally rotund cornishman crashing round a wood with shotguns don't really emulate the First Blood type of stealthiness but i'll tell you what there are several fir trees and a quarry wall that won't be so quick to look at us the wrong way again

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 10:22 am Post subject:
Please tell me which wood so I don't go for a walk there. 3 yorkshiremen and a cornishman?? the discussion on regional identity and self determination must have been long and passionate!

macatsuma

Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 77
Location: elland, west yorkshire

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 10:55 am Post subject:

no you're all quite safe the wood in question is in an old disused quarry that my mate owns and is turning into a kind nature reserve, its going to be stunning when he's finished.

I'm actually the cornishman but our family had to move lock stock and barrel when i was five, because there was no work down there but engineering and the woollen mills up here were hiring, but my dad is fiercely cornish and it kind of stuck even though i sound like that Barnsley poet guy thats on Look North (regional programme as it says in the paper, for those of you of a more southern disposition) As a small blond cornish boy in a yorkshire school i lost the accent pretty fast.

As an aside where would i best best posting a question about attracting a deer population?

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 10:58 am Post subject:
Land manangement? it's not conservation is it?

macatsuma

Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 77
Location: elland, west yorkshire

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 11:08 am Post subject:
no not conservation really although the deer population in the valley is small, we'd like to extend it some shelter in the quarry but don't know where to start, we thought of getting one of those acme signs like wil-e coyote saying "deer food this way" in lights

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 05 11:16 am Post subject:

macatsuma wrote:

we thought of getting one of those acme signs like wil-e coyote saying "deer food this way" in lights

Are you the dirty low down bugger that planted the one in my back garden that says "pigeon food this way"?

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