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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45685
Location: Essex
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Mistress Rose
Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16030
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dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46269
Location: yes
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 25 5:09 pm Post subject: |
 
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| dpack wrote: |
very nicely made
it seems to have lots of wires, does it make leccy as well as turn a wheel?
maybe the wires are control sensor links, they look thin for power output? |
The bunch of thin wires are thermocouples.
| Quote: |
if it does not work it should be fairly easy to get it working as it looks "new" and un-degraded by time etc
be careful with precision engineering
it seems chunky so it might produce a decent amount of usable energy from enough low grade heat, be that solar or other source, to give the right temp at the hot side |
It's intended use was for concentrated solar, as in the video. Very high temperature concentrated solar using a large parabolic dish (about 15 foot diameter or 160 square feet). The receptor area is only about the size of a baseball, so the input heat needs to be very concentrated and VERY hot about 800 suns, (potentially up to 3600°Fahrenheit)
I originally got it thinking I might run it on the top of my wood stove but so far I haven't been able to get the hot end up to "operating temperature" (minimum about 1200°F) by any normal heating appliance. Like an electric stove top burner on high.
The problem is, It needs a water cooling system running to keep the electronics cool so a lot of heat goes into the cooling system. So, I've managed so far to make a lot of hot water, but that is about all
Maybe not really a very practical design for a CHP system, though it was tested for that by the army, but strangely, once running, the heat is converted to electricity 3000 watts, and that keeps the engine running relatively cool, so it did not produce enough hot water.
It is difficult to find any documentation, so what information I have comes from old published online news or magazine articles. This one in particular is pretty informative:
https://www.machinedesign.com/markets/energy/article/21831691/infinia-uses-stirling-cycle-for-solar-power-and-air-conditioning
The production of these was going to be funded by some government fund to help bail out the auto industry. The funding was going to pay the auto makers to build these solar Stirling engines instead of car engines.
But then, suddenly the program to bail out the auto makers was canceled and the company making the Stirling engines declared bankruptcy. The existing engines already produced were sold as scrap and the operating instructions withheld.
Now the engines are being used to run compressors to open and close valves on gas pipelines in remote locations.
The engines can run 25 years without maintenance.
https://youtu.be/2Yzeo4JrsNs
So, without the mass production that could have been provided through the established auto industry the cost of production is higher than it might have been.
The engine I have, that you see in the photo was a production model that was sent to a university in Denver Colorado, I believe, for evaluation and testing, then it went into storage and was forgotten, apparently.
From what I've been able to find out, which isn't much, all the others that were produced were destroyed, sold as scrap metal.
I'm rather astonished that with the intended high heat input, this engine only requires a rather ordinary automotive type cooling system. I have to assume, once up and running, the conversion rater, heat to electricity is very high.
The above video is just clips I took from some other much longer interviews. Links are also in the description:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CoC_n-BYPJ4&t=0s
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y557uXBRkVg&t=0s
If the funding had not been pulled and these had gone into mass production, I imagine the cost of these engines would be way down by now. They are actually, in many ways, much much simpler than any automobile engine and can run for decades with zero maintenance.
It appears that the one I have was never used, just tested at a university. So it should have 20 years or more life left, if I can get it running
It is supposed to be self starting if it can be gotten hot enough.
I think a direct gas flame might do it, as these were originally used with propane and are now still being used on gas pipelines. |
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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Mistress Rose
Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16030
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 25 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Mistress Rose wrote: |
It sounds fairly typical of government contracts I am afraid. It was probably decided that it was too expensive for the results obtained so far.
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That is pretty obviously not true IMO.
While INFINIA publicly declared bankruptcy they continued producing the engines under gov. contract for military use, then later re-emerged as Qnergy as already seen, producing nearly identical engines for use by the oil and gas industry for remote power applications.
One company, a competitor with INFINIA for government contracts Microgen : https://www.microgen-engine.com/
also produces units for the oil and gas industry and CHP units in countries that allow it. I was told by a representative that there are, or were, until very recently, import restrictions that have prevented US sales.
IMO, the cost is being kept artificially inflated and the use restricted.to areas that do not threaten the economic and political status quo.
Qnergy talks about how their engine can run on biogas from pig manure, while absolutely true, you don't actually see them marketing any systems to farmers, it's just hype.
These engines are fundamentally so simple, you can find dozens and dozens of people on YouTube building models out of tin cans and rubber gloves and coat hangers.
https://youtu.be/r9lYsW0Df08?si=M0hC5aFFIPRztkii
https://youtu.be/CXsFNPmjluo?si=GvC7n0Q_cvBc4TYE
There is no real justification for one of these engines costing hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. |
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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Mistress Rose
Joined: 21 Jul 2011
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Tom Booth
Joined: 06 Jan 2025
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 25 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mistress Rose wrote: |
| Having worked in the defence industry for years |
Sorry, but appeals to ones own authority by anonymous posters on a forum carries no weight.
| Quote: |
| , I have seen the cancellation of projects fairly frequently. It can be for a variety of reasons; we didn't always know why, but politics, price and availability of cheaper alternatives (not always ones that worked as well) were the reasons we were aware of. |
For example?
Actually never mind. Unless you know something specific to this project (INFINIA Power Dish) your speculations regarding other alleged projects you've allegedly seen are largely irrelevant.
| Quote: |
| In this case] it seems that politics/ greed may have combined. However, the fact this particular one needs a very high temperature to get it going suggests this particular model is not of the tin can in the kitchen type or the sort that can be of a great deal of use at home. |
It is fundamentally identical to the "tin can in the kitchen", if the tin can model is of the "free piston" type. A free piston Stirling engine is a free piston Stirling engine.
Friction free flexure bearings can be made out of balloons, rubber bands or latex gloves as well as some space age alloy and serve the same purpose. Just as you can have wheels on a toy car or a semi tractor trailer. A wheel is a wheel.
Those type of solar dish Stirling generators could be planted in the ground anywhere like trees. Produced in various sizes with various power output. INFINIA also produced a smaller 1000 watt model.
INFINIA was attacked on many fronts. The withdrawing of funding is a matter of congressional record. INFINIA representatives appeared in Congress to explain the consequences of the cancellation of that funding and how it would ruin them.
Some supposed Native American tribe came out of the woodwork and sued them on the grounds that the proposed installation site in the desert was some sacred tribal land, the Railroad sued them on the grounds that the parabolic dish would blind train conductors causing train accidents.
Anyway, I'm with the OP: DIY CHP
Build your own.
It doesn't have to be built to NASA/Military specifications like the INFINIA models. Those were built to deflect bullets and survive bomb blast and/or withstand extremely harsh or unusual environments, including deep space.
https://youtu.be/4AsnE9kwyDw?si=A7BH1BIpm_rtYbf6
A functional Stirling engine can be made from scrap to run at various temperature ranges and doesn't necessarily need to be "free piston". |
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