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Downsizer Forum Index -> Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

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mark

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Leeds

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 3:03 pm Post subject:

Well pay per though has the advantage that it makes consumers want less packaging - and demand supermarkets etc don't dump loads of plastic and paper on them.

It has the disadvantage that it encourages flytipping.

But maybe we would be best to tax at source and put a recycling tax on packaging materials or a higher rate of VAT on packaged goods.

That would stop so much getting into circulation in the first place.

Compulsary recycling deposits on bottles, cans, jars, cartons would all do the same.

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?

Mark

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 3:04 pm Post subject:

Bebo wrote:

1) Penalise supermarkets and producers for excess packaging and not using biodegradeable or recycleable materials. WTF is the point of shrink wrapping a swede?

But that could lead to more landfill. It seems more food waste than packaging is produced so if you cut down on packaging there's a chance even more food waste is produced.

As for biodegradable packaging that just ends up in landfill for most people doesn't it? It can't be recycled along with other plastics, many places don't collect compostable waste and even if they did they may well exclude biodegradable plastics.

If councils don't currently collect and compost kitchen waste I can't see pig swill being collected either.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 3:05 pm Post subject:

mark wrote:

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?

Heck, we used to nick the empty bottles of brown from behind pubs and take them back for the deposit

marigold

Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 12458
Location: West Sussex

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 3:07 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Even collection of garden waste should be charged.

It is here - 50p per paper sack or �52 a year for a green waste wheelie bin.

Ed to say: And you have to pay for the compost if you buy it back - in Cambridgeshire it's free if you go and collect it, I believe.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 3:42 pm Post subject:

Pay-per-throw being scrapped is brilliant. It means we won't get a load of rubbish dumped in our ditch and then have to pay to dispose of it. It was an ill-thought out idea by an urban government determined to destroy our countryside and although the principle of the alternative may be exactly in line with what we, as Downsizers, would like to see, it does mean that the problem won't just be shifted out of sight and mind. As we already get dumpers with a free rubbish collection service there was sure to be more of it should they have started charging for it.

ksia

Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 2320
Location: Mayenne, France

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:00 pm Post subject:

mark wrote:

Compulsary recycling deposits on bottles, cans, jars, cartons would all do the same.

Does anyone remember the old days when bottles had a deposit and you would either take them back or cubs and scouts and other charity groups would collect them to claim the deposit for their funds?

Mark

For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:07 pm Post subject:

ksia wrote:

For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?

Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money, if you can be bothered cleaning them, crushing them and taking them to a scrap yard but most people either can't be bothered, have such high incomes that it doesn't seem worth the bother or simply don't know about it. I suspect most fall into the latter category but even if they did know I also suspect they'd fall into one of the other two categories rather than collect them. Some charities used to recycle them, but I haven't seen a charity can box for ages, so maybe they've found they get more money by ringing people up and hassling them than actually collecting and processing the tins.

mark

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Leeds

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:22 pm Post subject:

The idea of the deposit is that it is usually higher than the recycling value - so creating incentive to return and not dump the item.

Say you put 5p or 10p on a bottle or can - people start to want to return them - or their kids badger adults to allow them to go and get the cash on them !

It works for supermarket trolleys that don't get thrown into canals as much when it costs �1 and peole now take thm back if they remove them !

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:23 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money...

...in sufficient bulk. We'd take goodness knows how long to have enough to be worthwhile, and then I've no idea how the heck I'd get 'em to a scrap yard (or whether I'd find one within cycle trailer distance!).

I've also got reservations about pay-per-throw and the impact it would have on fly tipping (not just a rural issue - try getting fly tipped waste removed from your property in a city, its also a pain). But dropping it in favour of other measures that also don't address the big picture seems utterly naff to me.

ksia

Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 2320
Location: Mayenne, France

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:23 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

ksia wrote:

For the life of me I can't see why deposits on stuff wouldn't work well. Why isn't it happening?

P'raps things will start to change with Mr Cameron promising hard times ahead.

I agree about the high income thing - so, high deposits?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:27 pm Post subject:
Packaging does seem ridiculously cheap, I'd go for higher deposits.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:42 pm Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out.

As I keep saying, rat farming is the way to deal with that, after all, a landfill site is in effect a very inefficient rat farm, but one that doesn't have an end product.

So find a use for the rats: fish food, fertiliser, or put them in wheels and make electricity, and run the garbage down a big conveyor so they can eat off what's edible (and what's not edible to a rat?).

And now the clever bit.
The obvious sites for the rat farms are in the places where folk are most wasteful... and what do you think the typical reaction to the proposal of a rat farm at the end of the road is?

NIMBYs out in force.
But you have logic, common sense, and the council on your side unless they significantly reduce their waste output...

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:46 pm Post subject:

cab wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Aluminium and steel cans are worth good money...

It's the sort of thing you have to club together and do between a few families I think- an extra bin soon fills up and is quite weighty when they're all crushed.

cab wrote:

I've also got reservations about pay-per-throw and the impact it would have on fly tipping (not just a rural issue - try getting fly tipped waste removed from your property in a city, its also a pain). But dropping it in favour of other measures that also don't address the big picture seems utterly naff to me.

Err no, these measures get people to recycle more of what they do produce, which is far better as far as the big picture goes than dumping it on someone elses doorstep for them to pay to dispose of. This system might not be perfect, granted, but it is an improvement. It's not just a rural issue, but it is predominately one, because tippers are less likely to be caught out here and there are far more 'sites' available for them.

The ones that bother me most are not the rubbish tippers though (at least there is a chance they'll leave their address in said rubbish), they are the idiots who block drains with leaves they have collected from their own street/garden . We had one who was quite easy to trace- he used to tip his lawn clippings and leaves over the fence into our field. As the pile got bigger and bigger it started to encroach into the field itself. So Paul got the loader and scooped them all up, and tipped the whole lot back over his fence! He hasn't done it again.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 4:50 pm Post subject:

Hairyloon wrote:

Treacodactyl wrote:

I don't think packaging is the biggest problem, it seems that after garden waste kitchen waste is the next highest percentage of stuff thrown out.

I think power generating rats fed on refuse is a little too far fetched to me, but I've thought for a long time the solution is to sort the waste out where it's produced so those who produce it a affected by it rather than making it someone else's problem.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 10 5:14 pm Post subject:
What we really need are a few more rag and bone men...

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