should it have been more than a caution?

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should it have been more than a caution?
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Treacodactyl
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 5:54 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

The story you link to appears to be simple enough.

sg

Yes, and doesn't support your statement at all. It appears once you accept a caution it can take a fair bit or time, expense and legal advice to get it lifted; not "overturned as soon as the person left the station and made a complaint about the process."

toggle

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 6:00 pm Post subject:

Nick wrote:

In what reality is it simple?

exactly.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 7:37 pm Post subject:

toggle wrote:

i'd think the best thing to do if someone is playing moron games involving firearms is to remove the guns asap.

Couldn't agree with you more. It gives us gun owners a bad name.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 7:41 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

toggle wrote:

vegplot wrote:

toggle wrote:

would the caution have any effect on the gun owner's licence?

More than likely. A caution will possibly mean he won't be able to hold a licence, at least for a while. It depends on the type of firearm.

then i'm wondering if the police thought a caution was something he would sign, not realising the consequence. wheras he could have claimed an honest mistake and possibly contested any charge in court. a lot of people don't know a caution is an admittance of a crime and signing one gives you a criminal record. and i'd think the best thing to do if someone is playing moron games involving firearms is to remove the guns asap.

or am i crediting the local police with too much here?

The strength of evidence required for an "official caution" or "criminal caution" to be first considered and then offered is the same as that or a charge. An admission and a signature accepting the caution is also required for the "accused" to accept the caution, and the consequences. The issue here is that most people do not understand the terms used by the Police and in what context they are used and sometimes mean. I am sure the Police would not rely on that misunderstanding to inadvertently mislead people or fob them off with carefully worded explanations which on subsequent examination may prove to be such a misunderstanding.

https://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/police/firearms/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf?view=Binary

Edit to add link above

sg

Any one who is sensibly involved with firearms, either at club level or as a member of an organisation such as BASC will be, or should be, thoroughly familiar with the consequences of a caution.

Shotgun owners are probably less well informed as they neither required to be a member of a gun club or operate under the strict conditions imposed on section 1 firearms owners.

stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 9:21 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

toggle wrote:

that may be the official line, but i've heard of more than one instance of the police trying to bully someone into accepting a caution after a completely evidence free complaint was made.

Really? If that were the case, then that caution/conviction would be overturned as soon as the person left the station and made a complaint about the process. The Police staff involved would be subject to discipline and most likely criminal charges.

In any of the instances you have heard about have the maligned people taken the very simple and straightforward step to get their caution or conviction revoked?

sg

I should clarify and correct the earlier impression that I may have inadvertently given to say that an inappropriate caution could be overuled so soon and quite so simply. A caution could be ruled out if, following a caution having been issued, a representation was made and evidence found that the caution was inappropriate. I still think it is a simple process. And the example given about the involvement of the BASC does nothing to suggest it is complex or need be expensive.

sg

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 9:47 pm Post subject:

That's what I thought you meant SG but I disagree with you. In the case mentioned the police didn't back down until the chief exec of BASC met him, hardly what I'd call a simple matter. There are other examples where BASC have had to research the law and spend a large amount of time to prove the caution should not have been issued.

Anyway, the last paragraph may be relevant to the original question.

Quote:

Director of Firearms, Bill Harriman, said: "The joy on Mr Holding's face when I returned his rifle will be with me for a long time to come. The police are under great pressure to achieve Home Office targets these days and a caution may be a quick fix for an over-worked cop drowning in paperwork. Don't accept one without proper legal advice because you may come to regret it later."

stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 9:56 pm Post subject:
You are very gracious, and less literal than some perhaps, in light of my error Treacodactyl. Thank you. Due process will have been followed and the correct and ethical result achieved. A report of the process by a party without a vested interest in the proceedings might give a more objective view of the case in question? Nonetheless, cheers, and have sg

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 10:08 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

A report of the process by a party without a vested interest in the proceedings might give a more objective view of the case in question?

Perhaps although the FEO's I've spoken to don't seem that happy with things they see either. If anything BASC seem to be very restrained in their reports.

For example some forces have told people to not worry that the police have not renewed certificates in time when actually this is a very serious offense resulting in 5 years prison for the gun holder.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 10:18 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

Nick wrote:

In what reality is it simple?

It is a lot simpler than trying to work out your question Nick

Perhaps you could rephrase it?

sg

I think it's been answered.

My point is that it's not simple, or easy for many people who've run run into trouble with the law to suddenly realise there may have been a mistake, and they can get it erased and put right. Your hardened, experienced criminal, with all the nous and ability to use the system to get a brief isn't going to accept a caution off the bat, nor be offered one. Most people who are cautioned are first time offenders, with a degree of respect for the law, and an acceptance that they did wrong, and got off lightly. I would suggest its a rare person that would then go on to have the mental and financial fortitude to fight back and have it over turned.

What is simple on paper doesn't reflect real life for many people.

To rephrase the question, if it's simple to have a caution over turned and police officers disciplined, and face criminal charges, can you supply multiple examples for this?

As I say, I think the ground's been covered, but I answer for completeness.

stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 13 10:31 pm Post subject:
Nick - To answer your specific question, no I can not supply multiple examples, not even one. Because I know of none, and do not claim to know of any. I stand by my assertion that the process is relatively simple, and quick. But "simple" for some may be complex for others. I answer for completeness also. sg

toggle

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 13 12:28 am Post subject:
the process may in theory be simple and quick, but in theory, no one should be facing bullying to sign a caution and this can happen.

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