Cider down the sink

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Cider down the sink
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sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 15 11:11 am Post subject:
Phew.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46263
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 15 11:27 am Post subject:
good news . have you worked out what went wrong with that batch ?

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 15 12:15 pm Post subject:

Lorrainelovesplants wrote:

Better day.
I have just tasted 2 batches - one dry and one medium, and

They are bloody lovely!

A Glaswegian, drinking before lunchtime. Well I never...

Shan

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 9075
Location: South Wales

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 15 3:30 pm Post subject:
Question is, has she stopped tasting them yet?

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 8:41 am Post subject:

tasting isnt drinking.

Its a serious, scientific business. I have to keep a level head, make loads of notes (in case I forget) and I have a taste panel.
John is hopeless - his palate is too sweet, so he's not on it.

Panel currently:
Me
Kieran (young, undefiled tastebuds)
David (serious cider drinker)
Dan (early twenties, drinks a LOT)
Charlie (female, not really keen on cider due to bad past experiences)
Richard & Ollie (from the pub - professional experience)
Colin(cider drinker - beard & jumper)

Im looking for another female locally....just to balance it....

So, I narrow down a few blends and try them with SMALL quantities, and then look to people's comments and preferences.

mousjoos

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1986
Location: VERY Sunny SW France

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 8:44 am Post subject:
If you've included someone with a "beard & jumper" there are possibly no higher qualifications this means you're serious you will go far

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 8:46 am Post subject:

Dpack -
Possible reasons for failure -
quite an early batch, so could have been a high fermentation temperature which stresses the yeast and creates off flavours
OR
a cleanliness/air issue. Everything was fine till I combined 2 batches. This is the moment when either a minute amount of bacteria got in OR when air has been the cause.

So - memo to self regarding sanitising hoses between transfer and to use a blanket of CO2 in future to prevent oxygen getting in.

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 8:48 am Post subject:
The beard and jumper are high qualifications indeed. The comments at tastings are interesting. last time - 'This really is good' 'Its much better than that crap from up the road' 'Ill log your trees in exchange for a 10L box' 'When is the next tasting?' 'This glass really is too small to get an idea' 'I can come over and help you'

Falstaff

Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 10:15 am Post subject:

You don't actually say what the problem with the taste was lorraine, but you do mention "going to vinegar" and "the bacteria", so I'm thinking you were getting that odd Acetone taste (Nail varnish remover) which is the first steps towards vinegar and with which any of us who have done the home winemaking / brewing for a long time will know.

I've had it "pop up" once from an otherwise normal fermentation and I assumed (and still do) that a vinegar fly got in.

The other time it pops up regularly is if you use "Turbo-yeast". I've explored that situation with some fairly serious friends and what we believe happens is that "Turbo yeast" is so strong that when it gets towards the end of the sugar, the yeast starts on the yeast cells which have died and attacks the cellulose cell walls in a process like autolysis, and the by-product is something very like acetone.

The only ways we have found to stop "turbo yeast" producing the acetone twang, is to keep feeding sugar until it terminates the yeast at something over 20% abv, or to kill the yeast before the sugar is all used up.

So either of your explanations could be true if the yeast on your apples had a strong and a weak component perhaps ? Or you say you mixed two lots ? If one was nearly finished fermenting and the yeast was dying off and the other was going like a train, that active yeast could possibly have attacked the dead / dying yeast in the other ?

Dunno, but for me I'd never use any of the utensils or containers again for alcohol production

Glad it was only the one barrel that was off though - and I'm sure the drain was the right place for it.

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 15 10:32 am Post subject:

I never use turbo yeast.

It was a smell/taste of pear drops. So, yes, I thought acetone too. Now Im pretty clean fetishy, so I am thinking it was a combination of high temp (it was in the high 20's during the fermenting), and a bit of air during racking. I did have a problem at racking, which will NOT happen again.
The move from small scale to bigger has been interesting.

Luckily, Ive avoided the full vinegar thing, and thank God didnt use my pump, but that barrell is going to be used as a wter butt now. Its been scoured, steamed and heavily sulphited to prevent any air contamination, but I cant risk it.

This episode has seen me flush over �600 away.
Dont want to do that again in a hurry.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16021

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 15 7:41 am Post subject:
Pear drops is ethyl acetate. Not sure how that relates to the process, but distict from acetone.

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 15 9:45 am Post subject:

anyway, moving away from sad batches....
the one I bottled and pasteurised yesterday is loverly.
About 5% (awaiting test confirmation), and light, soft tannins, fruity taste, just medium, and moreish.... Should be a good seller.

My bespoke pasteuriser isnt completed yet, so I spent hours doing pasteurisation in 2 VIGO round pasteurisers. have it off pat now, but it still takes a LONG time. Started at 2pm and finished after 9pm last night.

12Bore

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9089
Location: Paddling in the Mersey

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 15 2:05 pm Post subject:
Nice one Lorraine, glad the second batch was up to scratch! I have a beard, and a jumper...

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 15 6:45 pm Post subject:
So has John. He's been very silly all day today. Everytime we did a fill, there was a bit left over and he's been drinking it! If I tell you that today we filled and pasteurised over 350 bottles.....

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46263
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Mar 08, 15 7:14 pm Post subject:

Lorrainelovesplants wrote:

CH3-COO-CH2-CH3,my vote is air got in ,perhaps not as a one off at a transfer stage but maybe as a longer term leak or via a slow ferment stage stopping the usual co2 blanket keeping things sweet

i have had that with winter wine in a bucket

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