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RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 6:34 am Post subject:

vegplot wrote:

There is no realistic local energy storage system that has acceptable efficiency with perhaps the exception of pumped water. The best option is to use at the point of use unless your investment in renewables is so low as to make it viable. We are still years away from this utopia but it's a goal worth achieving.

This says it all.

If you are on grid then any current storage system will not be cost effective.

Even pumped water only works as they buy the cheapest elec possible in the middle of the night for far less than you & I can pay (around 1p) & then sell it as a load balancer at the highest levels again for more than you & I buy it for.

Just because you have made the elec does not mean its viable to store it. Take FLA (thats standard lead acid batteries) systems. They cost 8p per kWh used in battery replacement alone.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16158

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 6:38 am Post subject:
Developments in electricity storage are interesting and it is the next step in the renewables story. Without storage, intermittant production is the main problem. As you have already said, these batteries will be superceded within a few years, but the main interest is that money is being put into battery development, so there could be a major improvement in them in a fairly short time.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 7:11 am Post subject:
If you want to use all your locally made elec on site then get an Emma or similar & turn it into hot water.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46417
Location: yes

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 9:59 am Post subject:
storing electrical energy as heat is a fairly good option if you need heat. there have been attempts to use air compression as an energy store but this is not very efficient

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 10:30 am Post subject:

Hairyloon wrote:

There should be incentives like FIT for energy storage systems.
It does occur to me that you could be naughty and store the energy then feed it back through your generation meter, but of course that would be fraud...

On cost effectiveness though, my electric is about 15p/kWh, if I switched to an economy seven tariff I could get it for less than half that, so potential savings of about 7p/kWh...
Would still take a -ing long time to pay for itself though.

& if you charged a battery on low tariff to use on high would that be fraud? I doubt it.
I thought you where paid feed in tariff on the amount you generate (estimated in most cases) not what you exported. I know a lot of newer systems are fitting smart tech to divert excess to water heating when not needed elsewhere, they still get the same amount of FIT, or am I missing something here?

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15461
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 11:03 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Hairyloon wrote:

& if you charged a battery on low tariff to use on high would that be fraud? I doubt it.

Sorry, did I blur two thoughts into one there? Perhaps I should've done two posts.

Quote:

I thought you where paid feed in tariff on the amount you generate (estimated in most cases) not what you exported.

Yes, but if you generate it and pass it through the meter into the store, then you get paid, and if you pass it through the meter again when you take it out of the store, then you would get paid again (until you got caught).

It is just a hypothetical idea, I wouldn't dream of actually doing it.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Sat May 02, 15 6:15 pm Post subject:

Hairyloon wrote:

You would soon get caught if you were making more than your system should be.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 10:31 am Post subject:
Report in Forbes re Tesla battery.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46417
Location: yes

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 11:34 am Post subject:
interesting article ,the comments are rather mixed . if the equation and maths is correct the 20 cent(us)price per kw stored is getting close to grid prices but not there yet. for places with no grid it seems a bargain. the price is based on start up prices and there is a fair chance that the cost per kwh stored will drop considerably

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 11:40 am Post subject:
Tesla is about advancing the technology. It's innovative and in the right direction a little like successful landing of SpaceX's first stage. It's yet to happened but I applaud the effort being made to make it so.

john of wessex

Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 2130

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 8:34 pm Post subject:

The real issue is how many cycles the battery can cope with.

If you pay -say �1000 for a battery with a 1000 cycle life then it costs you �1 per cycle.

In the UK of course what about winter when a Solar PV isn't producing much if anything? The obvious use woud be to allow the batteries to be charged in the off peak & used to supplement supply at peak periods.

There is an interesting article at

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/05/sustainability-off-grid-solar-power.html

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 9:19 pm Post subject:

john of wessex wrote:

The Tesla battery comes with a ten year warranty & options on an extended warranty. I haven't seen any estimates on how long it will last but if they are prepared to offer warranties that long they must be confident to its longevity.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46417
Location: yes

Posted: Tue May 05, 15 9:22 pm Post subject:
pv and wind are a bit patchy in many locations but there are local scale constant feed options such as moving water that could even up the curves . perhaps the grid is a good place to start from local grids that include battery racks might be a workable goal. i still recon battery tech will develop rapidly

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Wed May 06, 15 9:54 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Warranties do not cover you for abuse. Most batteries are murdered by user abuse not die from manufacturing defects or natural wastage. Oddly they claim that a Lithium Ion batty has a float life of 14-16 years. So that is its max life time even if not cycled at all. I would be very interested to see just what is written in the warranty. I'm betting most of the warranty is to cover the electronics & that bats are considered a consumable which is the normal case.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15461
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Wed May 06, 15 10:49 am Post subject:
I would hope that a system like that is designed to be idiot proof and incapable of self-abuse.

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