Pesticides. The birds & the bees.

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Pesticides. The birds & the bees.
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Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 10:19 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

No, but we have the figures, which show that meat & dairy combined, -as a proportion of overall world diet, is the same whereas fruit & veg has risen by 4% (or if you look at the UK, -9% & +8% respectively), yet you seem happy to lay the blame for poor health on even the 'healthy' meat (that I suspect, but the figures don't show, has decreased as a proportion of the total).

Where have those figures come from? & over what timescale?

The same source I have quoted throughout, which was the Nat Geo one taking figures from FAOSTAT. The dataset they used is available here. The timescale was 1961-2011.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 10:54 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Where have those figures come from? & over what timescale?

The same source I have quoted throughout, which was the Nat Geo one taking figures from FAOSTAT. The dataset they used is available here. The timescale was 1961-2011.

Excuse me but a quick browse shows figures from 1993 to 2013 in all the instances I looked at in various sectors.
There's nothing there from the 1960's that I can see.
It would account for the discrepancies as the source is the same (Food & Agriculture Organisation of the UN.) .
Per capita we eat a lot more meat now than we did in the 1960's.
I appreciate & accept a good proportion of that is pork & poultry but production of beef has increased as well, & the methods are more intensive & more environmentally damaging, & that trend seems to be increasing.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 11:38 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Where have those figures come from? & over what timescale?

The same source I have quoted throughout, which was the Nat Geo one taking figures from FAOSTAT. The dataset they used is available here. The timescale was 1961-2011.

The dataset goes all the way back to 1961.

Please stop using the words 'a lot more' if you can't qualify the statement. If you have the figures, use them.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 11:41 am Post subject:
Where does it go back to 1961? All the graphs I saw where from 1993 to 2013.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 11:48 am Post subject:
From the paper I quoted from. World Food consumption of meat per capita 1964/66 24.2 kg Carcass weight equivalent. 1997/99 36.4kgs 2015 (predicted) 41.3 kgs 2030 (obviously predicted) 45.3 kgs. Figures.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 1:40 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Where does it go back to 1961?
All the graphs I saw where from 1993 to 2013.

I'm not sure where you're looking, but the link I provided was to datasets, not graphs. The drop down menu under 'year' goes back to 1961 up to 2013.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46235
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 2:25 pm Post subject:

i suspect my hounds and me get more than our fair share

eg .lots of df ,a pig ,a mutton ,maybe a 1/3 of a steer, plus fish,chooks, sausages etc etc per year

that said tt and sd eat less meat than most folk so perhaps it evens up as a household

we also eat a lot of veg and salad as well ,oddly all of us are quite skinny especially chompski who is very toned

ed that is mostly pesticide free .low chem input food though.

Last edited by dpack on Sun Aug 23, 15 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 2:26 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

From the paper I quoted from.
World Food consumption of meat per capita 1964/66 24.2 kg Carcass weight equivalent.

1997/99 36.4kgs

2015 (predicted) 41.3 kgs

2030 (obviously predicted) 45.3 kgs.
Figures.

That seems to be quite conservative compared to my data which, for 1997, is equivalent to 52.56kg.

However my figures are the combined total of animal products with a slight reduction of dairy (per capita) and increase in meat. I've compared this with the level of fruit & veg consumption for comparison.

You previously said that;

Tavascarow wrote:

But we already consume more than is healthy, & not enough vegetable or fibre in the diet, so how eating more will make us healthier I fail to see.

I eat what you would call a high meat diet, about in line with the average figures, so when I started keeping a food diary a few months ago, due to a change in medication, I decided, out of interest, to see if I was getting enough fibre. It turned out that I was getting plenty with little effort, which is perfectly in line with my view that eating meat does not mean that you have an unhealthy diet.

I heard on the radio the other day, so I don't have a source but it was R4, that over half of the massive increase in calories in the US over the last half century has come from the increased consumption of veg oil. I've just run the figures through the graphics and we see that the US (2011) consumes 16% more food overall by weight (2729g v 2352g in 1961) but a huge 154% increase in veg oil (84g v 33g). (Their calorie intake has risen by 26% to 3641 Calories in the same timeframe)

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46235
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 2:31 pm Post subject:
in pursuit of increasing calories over time the amounts of corn sugars in many processed foods and soft drinks should get a mention. again a corn product and based on intensive arable

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 2:32 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

we also eat a lot of veg and salad as well ,oddly all of us are quite skinny especially chompski who is very toned

Cross posted and well timed - the obesity/meat link is a curious one, as everyone I know who eats a lot of it are more like chompski than miss bacon.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46235
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 6:54 pm Post subject:

this is a bit of a simplistic assessment but broadly accurate

the processed ready meals,high calorie sweet or salty or fatty snacks and sugar based drinks are cheap and very easy to eat far too much of whereas well prepared meat,fats ,veg etc can be high calorie but they seem to have triggers to tell you enough is enough.

another factor is that calories from meat and fat are easy to use and difficult to store unlike calories from corn syrup/oil or super processed meat based products which are hard to use and easy to store

it is important to take into account that "calories" in food are measured by setting it on fire rather than by digesting it into bits and then using those bits in a physiological system.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 9:39 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

it is important to take into account that "calories" in food are measured by setting it on fire rather than by digesting it into bits and then using those bits in a physiological system.

Yup

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15985

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 15 6:22 am Post subject:

One thing to consider when looking at meat consumption on a world wide scale is that the aspiration of a lot of developing countries is to eat a 'Western' diet, which may contain more meat than their traditional one. This was an aspiration in the UK in the past too; the poor in the 17th century for instance ate nearly entirely vegetables, whereas the rich ate almost entirely meat. Those in the middle, who tended to be the healthiest, ate both.

I would be surprised if meat consumption in the UK had risen significantly since 1961. It still wasn't unusual to have a fried breakfast, or at least bacon then, whereas most people now have cereal or toast.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 15 9:27 am Post subject:
Anyway total consumption of meat is another subject & more to do with global climate change. This thread is really about pesticides & their damage to the environment. Here's a set of figures showing the increase of fertilizers & pesticides over a similar time period. Fertilizers & pesticides an empirical view. I can't find anything on neonicotinoid production figures.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46235
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 15 10:06 am Post subject:
fertilisers and pesticides are deeply connected to the production of products such as corn oil/syrup ,feeds to produce industrial meat ,dairy and eggs etc etc .

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