dpack?

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dpack?
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Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 5:41 am Post subject: dpack?

dpack, you've inspired me.

A cider tree arboretum?
We've got eight different varieties of cider tree here on a small commercial scale but there are so many different one's available out there. Not counting the modern introductions, there are hundreds of old traditional varieties. Some of them have fantastic names and histories.
We would only be able to house a small selection but I've been giving some thought of perhaps starting a small cider tree collection. Possibly just one or two specimens of some of the more notable and unusual cultivars.

We do have a small piece of land on our property that's just ripe for renovation as they say. It definitely needs a make over but the problem is the price of the trees.
I've been conditioned to expect to pay around the five pound mark for each bare rooted tree when buying in bulk from The Frank Matthews Nursery in Tenbury but as yet, I've been unable to find another company anywhere near as reasonable as them.
The prices range of the other companies when buying individual specimens seem to vary from just over a tenner and up to twenty quid. Matthews's produce fantastic trees but the varieties that they produce tend to be the mainstream one's. I'm looking to get trees in that are a little bit different.
I think it would add quite an interesting feature, if customers for our farm pressed cider, apple juice and Gloucestershire Old Spots pork were able a to take a short amble through a well kept orchard collection.
Right now, this is just a thought and will probably be a project that we'll begin this winter.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15967

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 6:38 am Post subject:
Sounds like a nice idea. Could you get cuttings from local trees and graft or grow your own from them, depending on how big you want the trees to be?

Piggyphile

Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 891
Location: Galicia

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 6:58 am Post subject:

Brilliant idea.I might be the only one thinking this but could I sponsor an old cider apple tree in your new orchard if we are talking at under �30? All I would need is the name of what you got and perhaps a short couple of sentences with it's history and look (colour/size/shape of apples). I don't need follow-up which is time consuming for you. An ideal crowd funder project. Just knowing that I have contributed towards helping to save a tree or two would be enough. What have Brogdale got in the way of unusual cider apples? I bet there would be tons of people wanting to do the same. Let me know if you want to take me up on the above offer. Perhaps a new thread with an appropriate title?

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 7:00 am Post subject:
Are there any 'Apple groups' who may be interested and can help with supply?

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8918
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 10:20 am Post subject:
don't forget perry pears...it is so difficult to get proper perry instead of "pear cider"

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 10:37 am Post subject:
Which reminds me... How's the project going dpack?

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 11:09 am Post subject:
https://newsroom.herefordshire.gov.uk/2011/august/celebrating-herefordshire%E2%80%99s-orchard-heritage.aspx It's old, James is a good guy, and might be able to help with contacts. Also, https://www.hlf.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/press-releases/raising-glass-traditional-orchards might be interesting.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 12:22 pm Post subject:
Perhaps consider budding of multiple varieties to individual trees for maximum space efficiency of genotype preservation?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 12:34 pm Post subject:

nice idea mate.

when pricing unusual old variety trees i have found 2/3 yr maidens for between �15/20, half standard around the �35 mark and full standards at around �45 /55

i have been told and observed that pot grown standards are the most reliable and they crop sooner than babies,so perhaps for a few trees spending a bit more short term is a good investment compared to spending less twice or waiting a few years longer before getting a decent crop.

i will pass on my list of recommended nurseries when i get chance as to varieties tom putts is multi purpose cooker then cider and if left on the tree a bit longer a fair eater so that might be a possible.judging by the ones in the orchard good croppers and can cope with zero maintainance.
i spose variety choice should bear in mind your micro climate and soil type

remember to dig a huge ,deep hole and back fill to planting depth with good compost ,feathers / bfb etc to give the root stock plenty of food and an easy space to establish itself if the soil is less than perfect in the top meter or so otherwise the new roots tend to be shallow

re the dormouse orchard ,we are waiting on the adjoining hotels planning application for a final go ahead on the whole site but we have a group set up and are planning a picking day to keep the volunteers interested on the landlord permission ,so i spose we are running but we cant run too fast yet.im hoping all is sorted before the planting season as we have funds for at least ten trees and guards which should create more interest

we have a friends of the dormouse orchard face book page if you want to have a peek

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 12:49 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

remember to dig a huge ,deep hole and back fill to planting depth

We no longer recommend that around here. The thought being that loose-ish material going back in to the hole will slowly compact and/or organic matter (compost, etc) will degrade and shrink in size, allowing the crown of the tree to sink down relative to the soil line it was intended to be planted at.

"Plant it high, never die" as the saying goes. One could try to backfill more than one would expect the hole to sink back down, but it's maybe best to not dig so deep in the first place.

At the nursery I had worked for we recommended that people dig their planting holes at least twice as wide as they needed to be, and to put their amendments in that area, loosening up the soil where the new roots will primarily be growing out into.

This brings up the other issue with planting holes - make sure not to create a sharp dividing line between native soil in the area and the soil that the tree is planted in! Water doesn't move well through distinct boundaries in soil types, and you can sometimes get a rootball that doesn't take on much water, or one that sits in a tub of water that won't drain out. Best practice is now advised as mixing the amendments and planting soil with the native surrounding soil as you backfill to create a gradient of any transitions

Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 12:58 pm Post subject:
I only ever do bare rooted planting.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 1:14 pm Post subject:

hole depth considerations still apply for bare root plantings.

(some are promoting root washing of potting mix from potted or B&B trees at planting as well!)

https://www.vtcommunityforestry.org/sites/default/files/pictures/plantingtreestherootwashingwayjimflott.pdf

Edit: Here's a more up to date version of conventional root ball planting best practices

https://www.vtcommunityforestry.org/sites/default/files/pictures/new_treeplanting.pdf

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 1:30 pm Post subject:

with you on the plant high,if the original goes back in with the additions it gives a mound to then dig a planting hole into which avoids that sinking feeling,im also with you on mixing stuff in wide .

re bare rooted ,it works but takes a bit longer to crop.

if you go for B R maidens it only adds a couple of years to the wait

i spose ive been thinking about a place where they need to look good from the start and be quite robust (and theft resistant ,i was thinking of ground anchors and cages)as it is effectively a public space adjoining a main road.

im a bit surprised by the root washing thing never heard of it ,i will read up on it ,ta .

Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 3:37 pm Post subject:
With newly planted trees, a delayed fruiting can only be beneficial. For the first couple of years, I take all fruits off the tree before they have time to grow. This encourages good root growth.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 15 4:24 pm Post subject:
that makes sense and is in the maintenance plans for the new trees.

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