Help with energy use/provision please

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OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 6:53 am Post subject: Help with energy use/provision please

Some Government statistics about energy use where I live from
here

DOMESTIC ELECTRICITY AND GAS USE, 2010-11
Area E02002332 in Leeds
Average consumption of gas, per meter, kilo-watt hours: 15,024kwh - (total consumption is 37,530,260kwh). The average per meter in Britain is 14,898kwh

Average consumption of electricity, per meter, kwh: 4,273kwh - (total consumption is 9,626,729kwh). The average per meter in Britain is 4,709kwh

If I'm interpreting these figures correctly then total energy used in a year from Gas was equivalent to 37,530,260kwh and from electircity 9,626,729kwh.
Total of approx 47,157,000 kwh.
Average 129,000 kwh per day

My question is: what installed generation capacity would be required? What is the formula?

Ultimately I'd like to know what size (in MW) coal/gas plant could meet this demand.
And also the same for wind turbines or solar panels.

Can anyone help?

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 9:29 am Post subject:
I don't think you have enough info as you need to know the peak demand to work out what sized power generation you need. You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 9:56 am Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.

Isn't the daily consumption a quantity consumed for that day? So it would be a sum of the various low and high demand values?

I would have thought somewhere there is a rule of thumb relating overall daily consumption to peak demand (like a simple fraction)?

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 10:25 am Post subject:

OtleyLad wrote:

Treacodactyl wrote:

You only have a daily average, which is a small fraction of the peak load.

Daily consumption for an average day, it will be much higher on a cold winters day. There is data that could be used to extrapolate but I don't know how detailed you need it, it will depend on what type of users you have such as business vs domestic, large student population etc.

Having a quick search I couldn't find anything where you could plug in your numbers and get a simple "you need this sized power station answer". (There's also all sorts of numbers such as capacity factor that need to be taken into account as well).

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 10:35 am Post subject:

iirc peak demand in terms of the size of sudden spikes varies both over the course of a week ( industrial use, sunday lunch etc etc ) , over a year ( dark winter evenings, etc etc ) and due to rarer events (world cup half time etc etc ) and can have localised anomalies from a national average both in terms of timing and size of demand (local bakery , tram system etc etc )

some are predictable (christmas) and some are not (9/11) a system needs to have the capacity for unpredictable peaks.

it also needs the capacity to deal with part of the generation side of it breaking and therefore causing a sudden extra demand on the rest of it

the stuff warren buffet is doing with renewable local grid systems might be useful background info ,google scholar and patents could have some technical details.
iirc much of the technical detail of the uk national grid is covered by the osa so getting details of some aspects could require deep thought and working around that from non restricted info.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6613
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 12:10 pm Post subject:
Instead of simplifying down to just one plant, shouldn't you be slightly more complex and make it two? (i.e., a baseload plant and a peaker plant) For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 1:14 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....

The peaker plant would have to have to cope with the maximum load as you would need to cope with a peak seasonal load with the possibility of no wind.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6613
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 2:55 pm Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Slim wrote:

For wind calc. substitute in average production for baseload plant, but keep peaker plant, etc.....

The peaker plant would have to have to cope with the maximum load as you would need to cope with a peak seasonal load with the possibility of no wind.

You trying to drag us down into the details? Is there industry on the grid that will change power usage in response to off-peak pricing incentives? Are the people culturally okay with rolling brownouts? What's the climate (some places have reliable solar, some have reliable wind, some have neither). blah blah blah.

The scale of the modeling needs to be appropriate for the scale of the question. We don't really know the details of Otley lad's questions

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 17 3:01 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

You trying to drag us down into the details?

Almost the opposite, I was trying to simplify the question.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Help with energy use/provision please

OtleyLad wrote:

Average 129,000 kwh per day

Averaging 5.3MW
Personally I typically peak at about 20x my average, but it's entirely conceivable that I could go to 40x or even more, but the probability of a city doing that is probably fairly low.

What is the actual purpose to the question? Are we looking for an integrated energy supply for the city?

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Help with energy use/provision please

Hairyloon wrote:

OtleyLad wrote:

Average 129,000 kwh per day

Just to get an idea of what sort of generation capacity would be needed if Otley was ever to become anything close to self-sufficent in energy production.
The local Green Party is discussing this as well as the local council - looking at what's possible in the renewable area.

I would have thought somewhere there is a rule of thumb that says a 'typical' town of populatation x requires y MW of energy generation.
A substantial part of this could be met with a mix of solar/wind/hydro. The river Wharfe runs through the town, we're surrounded by high moors and so there's the option of pumped water storage.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 9:29 am Post subject:
As the others have said you don't want averages you need consumption profiles, daily and seasonal. From there you can work out your generation capacity, imports, carrots and sticks. For instance the economies of scale may mean that it's better to buy in peak supply than ask your small community to pay for and maintain predominantly idle capacity.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 10:58 am Post subject:

Behemoth wrote:

As the others have said you don't want averages you need consumption profiles, daily and seasonal...

Well yes and no.
If the aim is to be somewhere "close to self sufficient", then the relevant question is how close is close?
Self sufficient on average is probably a lot closer than most places and gives us an easy answer to the question: call it 6MW, or 7MW for a bit more leeway.

That is where I would start, then look at the options for energy storage to iron out the peaks and troughs.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 11:09 am Post subject:

there are some green/conservation issues that need careful consideration with using moving water but gravity, a river ( and perhaps over capacity of dams from the industrial past ?) combined with some decent tech moving splosh is a huge advantage when seeking a local energy supply.

buying in peak and exporting some production ie still part of the NG might be an option but have a look at the tech/money side of buffet's projects ,he isnt daft at making investments work and he sees "green" as a nice earner so there is scope for using an economic as well as zero co2 argument if you get to the needing investment cash stage.
iirc he is investing in a sunny/windy place with no moving water but the overall plan might be adaptable to your situation.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 17 12:23 pm Post subject:
Possibly of use. https://ukerc.rl.ac.uk/DC/cgi-bin/edc_search.pl?GoButton=Detail&WantComp=42&WantResult=LD&WantText=profile& https://ijeee.org/volums/volume7/IJEEE7PDF/Paper727.pdf https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/reports/PoweringthenationreportCO332.pdf

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