what is the heating solution for an old house

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what is the heating solution for an old house
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Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 12:02 pm Post subject:

They still produce more dust than not driving them. It's also not just brake dust but tyre dust, road dust etc.

In the UK at them moment woodfuel has been over demonised possibly down to large companies lobying the government to introduce restrictions. In a few months time I can't even sell a bag of logs without paying something like a £500 registration fee.

Meanwhile there's precious little being done to enforce existing laws around air polution such as farmers not following the rules around slurry spreading which leads to ammonia in the atmosphere causing more damaging polution.

There's also nothing to stop large scale open air burning of waste. So you can fell a tree and burn it whilst wet but you can't log it up and sell the wood.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 12:25 pm Post subject:
It just hurts your overall argument to be targeting a transition to EVs, which is clearly going to make large improvements in terms of CO2 and air pollution. If you're pissed off about bad rulemaking around woodburning, talk about that, don't gish gallop into inaccuracies about EVs.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 12:32 pm Post subject:
Among the first results after googling "air pollution EVs": https://epha.org/electric-vehicles-and-air-pollution-the-claims-and-the-facts/

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 12:32 pm Post subject:
We're talking about house heating. Much of the laws seem to be based on towns/cities citing polution and ignoring those in the country. EVs are relevant as polution in towns isn't just down to one thing. Cars could be run on magic but they will still cause particulate polution to some degree.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 12:35 pm Post subject:
Yes, you're making my points for me. Why bring up EVs at all? Also, yes, all vehicles will have some pollution - why not choose the ones that reduce much of it, and transition us away from fossil fuels?

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9887
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 2:01 pm Post subject:

I am beginning to think the answer might be to keep going with my gas boiler until it dies, then replace it with an electric boiler. we nearly went electric originally but the cost of electric compared to gas put us off.. this is something that is changing.

The argument of not wanting to be dependent on electricity falls flat as my CH doesn't work without lecky to pump the water around. And besides I have a wood burning range and a wood burning stove.

And as I generate hot water using home grown (yes been dried for actual years) wood, it means the electric would only be used to top up etc.

I think it would be good if I could generate a lot of my own electric via PV - but as I mentioned in another post, I don't have a big south facing roof, which is why I was considering the barn some 85 ft away.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Oct 21, 21 5:10 pm Post subject:

pv suits some things, from 85m away the feed back to the house might eat an unfair slice of the cake

grid storage needs 3 phase and a long time to pay for the kit

house size batteries are not domestic items yet

etc

that said many good options can be found for pv tech, perfect would be the roof powers the house, the pv kit runs the heat exchange pumps seems a decent ambition that is within current available tech parameters

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 21 5:27 am Post subject:

I see the obvious and easiest solution being electric boilers. They are or should be cheap and renewable electric should be on a gradient to being the cheapest fuel.
I'm guessing where we live is a better than average heat pump spot, but it would still be wildly expensive and a maintenance nightmare.
Basically if you want heat pumps, then start twenty years ago with building regulations that make the things viable. Even now it tells us everything you need to know that current building regs are about profit and not insulation.
We have Dracula in charge of every blood bank

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 21 6:11 am Post subject:

I'm reminded of probably 15 to 20 years ago how sickened I was by the new housing estate going up near me.
Not a case of nimbyism but the slogan on the banners around it was:

"Abbey Meads - A new style of living for the 21st century"

But all the estate was, was badly insulated rabbit hutches with a penchant for houses that were "technically" detached.

I doubt the spaces between those houses would fit a heat pump and neither would the backs.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15997

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 21 6:57 am Post subject:

Slim, I am concerned about my livelihood, but we were running down the firewood anyway as we are going more towards charcoal. We live very close to a main road, what you might call an auto route, with constant traffic during the day, and the dust that comes from that is one reason that I am comparing burning wood with vehicles.

The other reason is that a lot of misinformation is being generated in the UK about wood burning. A survey carried out by the government found that up to 38% of particulates could come from wood burning in the home, but the small print said this could be a factor of 10 out. In fact a man who has been touting this figure has actually measured the PM 2.5, which still might be an over estimate as it cannot be measured directly, and found it to be 3-6% in the countryside and 6-9% in towns, so about a factor of 10 out. I have been studying this over the last few years, and so no advantage in reducing PM 2.5 while burning gas which is a fossil fuel.

Yes, I agree EVs are coming, I agree that we need to improve our insulation in the UK, but sadly, as Jema says, even modern houses aren't very well insulated by your standards. Having said that, the number of days it gets even below 0 C in the south of the UK are limited. It is however rather damper, so moisture and air flow management are almost as important as heating. Your cousin sounds interesting and just the person to advise people such as us Downsizers on how we should make affordable changes. I don't know for instance whether the air to air heat pumps available to us are the same as in the US, and whether they are worth it.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Fri Oct 22, 21 8:15 am Post subject:

Having lived in a 1990s built house where we just topped up the loft insulation I was surprised how little energy we used with old storage heaters and an E7 immersion heater.

So much so that I'm probably going to go that route here, modern storage heaters will be better and no where near as expensive to install and maintain than other options.

And as said, wood burner for most of our heating until such time that they are banned. Having a few hundred tonnes of our own ash to take down makes that a rather obvious option.

Without wishing ill on anyone I hope we have a cold still few weeks during winter this year to bring home to everyone the fact we are many years away from relying on renewables.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15997

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 21 6:44 am Post subject:
Sadly the people that will least affect are the ones making the decisions. The sad fact of thousands getting very cold because they can't get electricity or can't afford heating will pass them by. Their view is that peasants don't count. We might end up either having to do an emergency gas fire removal on son's bungalow or have them here to stay in those conditions.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 21 9:46 am Post subject:

Quote:

Vehicle tyres are probably the biggest source of plastic pollution in our rivers and seas, according to a new report commissioned by Friends of the Earth.

https://friendsoftheearth.uk/sustainable-living/tyres-and-microplastics-time-reinvent-wheel

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 21 9:44 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

Sadly the people that will least affect are the ones making the decisions. The sad fact of thousands getting very cold because they can't get electricity or can't afford heating will pass them by. Their view is that peasants don't count. We might end up either having to do an emergency gas fire removal on son's bungalow or have them here to stay in those conditions.

get a gas safe piper to cap the supply

(

the flue may need a wood fire safe liner

quite an attractive option if required

if has to be diy, get the right size of blanking cap for the feed pipe, gas off, disconnect, cap pipe a safe distance from the fire, test for leaks with soapy water

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15997

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 21 10:13 am Post subject:
Husband is quite capable of safely removing and capping the supply. As part of his electrical fitter training, he learnt a lot of plumbing techniques, which has been very useful over the years. I suspect that in emergency, most people will just use the chimney in whatever state it is. Hopefully, most will still be functioning safely.

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