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Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects

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tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 21 7:33 pm Post subject:
I can’t see any price reductions in the next year or so, still huge disruption in supply chains for all sorts of stuff worldwide

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 21 5:12 am Post subject:

if you are shopping now, can it be put in a van now and delivered in the next couple of days

having done "tool" shopping over the last couple of years, available is high on the criteria list
a subset of that is which country is it in at the mo?

i have had a few things that were the last one in the uk, nice scissors.

if batteries and panels have a similar supply side landscape to other "building materials" availability is probably the biggest issue at the mo

re imports, some fairly local ones are now more expensive than they were, and all imports got 20% more expensive overnight in 2016, the gift that keeps taking

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 21 5:28 am Post subject:
The next generation of batteries when it lands will come with much improved energy densities and much quicker recharging times. More relevant to cars than to a domestic setup, but I do think that as soon as they are rolled out secondhand prices for today's EVs will plummet unless they can be easily retrofitted.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Thu Dec 09, 21 7:41 am Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

tahir wrote:

I'm not actively involved in the industry so I can't casually point you at anything more "tangible"

That's why I asked Jema as he was quoting someone who is actually selling them. If I just look for a general answer you see lots of graphs where the price falls decrease year on year as the demand soars.

Edit to add, I'm interested as I'm considering installing some batteries possibly next year so I'm interested in what the cost might be over the next year or two, not what might come along in a decade or two.

I'm going the install without batteries and when actually doing the paperwork with the guy, he seemed to agree with the idea that batteries might even go up a bit in the next year or two, but the longer term prospect is for much cheaper much better batteries.
Seems everyone is making the shift from the current generation that often needs cooling and has had a few fires (though not compared to ICE)
Last tech I read about claimed double energy density at a 60% reduction in cost.
That's the sort of number that utterly transforms the EV landscape.
It's also the sort of number that rather outpaces any payback in a home solar setup and I generally prefer being away from the bleeding edge.

Bebo

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12590
Location: East Sussex

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 21 7:03 pm Post subject:

We're about halfway into our 25 year contract for feed in tariff on our panels and no intention of changing the arrangement until they stop paying us handsomely for taking the power generated. After that lapses I reckon we'll be at the point that recycled EV batteries will be being used regularly for household supply. Will be tempting at that stage to put a couple in the garage, link them to the panels and see if we can generate / store enough to run the house.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 21 8:32 am Post subject:

75% of original capacity is "difficult" for a vehicle, it should be more than adequate for a few years use as a domestic storage battery

different tech and scale, but a "very old" lead acid battery that is useless for a car is adequate as an overnight buffer battery for a pv leccy fence

so long as they are mechanically safe, ie not on fire etc, pre loved EV batteries might be a cost effective storage tech for domestic scale leccy

nearly all my experience of PV has used pre loved components as well as rig specific ones
i see no reason why that could not be upscaled to full domestic or even mini grid buffering

a small problem might be the variety of gen one car batteries, and they are made for a different charge /load profile, but with the right control gear etc making it work is more than plausible

batteries are quite diverse, some do high load/short duration, eg a car battery
some do slow charge, slow discharge of a moderate load for a long time. eg a leisure /boat battery

EV batteries need to do both, high load to accelerate and steady load to get 300 miles at a constant speed, even after a while of reuse it might still be a similar profile
that should make them ok for running all the constant small loads, lights freezers, normal pooters etc and capable of taking a motor start surge current for a washing machine or kettle and toaster moment when the sun is off

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 21 9:05 am Post subject:

ps it might be best to use the cells from old car units rather than the units and a couple of big crocodile clips

eliminate the failed cells, create a practical "box" for safe domestic use, and build for the A V aH profiles to match domestic rig needs

repurpose and/or adapt has a place between first use and recycle for minerals etc with this sort of tech

heat management may be an issue when making the "box", but the power electronics and "smart"switch gear is all available.
creating or finding who has created such things is very plausible.

put a couple of old car power units in a shed with some switch gear is also plausible

pps the CAT folk have played with reuse and new combo stuff for decades, crusty dibnahs have continued those experimental traditions, what does not work is educational if looking for what does
for instance a "dead"car provides most of the parts for tunnel ventilation and low voltage low load stuff in half an hour with bolt croppers and a decent knife, even with 1/5 hp hippy drive on a bike genny

i have timber that is in its third life and looking good for a long 3rd age, getting 2 lives out of Li cells is just as simple and complex.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 22 2:08 pm Post subject:
The panels went in today, reducing grid consumption at the moment to mostly 0.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 22 3:10 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 22 8:18 am Post subject:
That's good. Are you putting electricity into the grid or storing excess?

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 22 8:50 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

That's good. Are you putting electricity into the grid or storing excess?

Goes back to the grid for which we'll get a little as soon as paperwork can be done.
My take on batteries is that the tech is evolving rapidly in power and price and so doesn't make a lot of sense right now.
It's a bit of a shame as ever that whilst we have a smart meter telling us internal consumption via a device and the solar whatsit can also have an app, none of these things has any interoperability.
e.g. right now. I'd like a routine that said.
If we have more than 400watts excess then power on an electric heater in the living room to save on the gas.
That sort of thing should be utterly trivial, or in the summer it might be kick off the immersion heater.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 22 6:54 am Post subject:
That would make a lot of sense. At least most computer things will talk to each other now; I remember the early days when you couldn't even get the computer to talk to any printer except the specific one made for that machine. Watching the battery developments with interest.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 22 10:54 am Post subject:
Unfortunately, I can't direct you to any specific companies, but those technologies exist. I think it's often a "third box" that compiles the info from other parts and then makes the decisions. I would try to search through some of the fully charged episodes, as they frequently feature UK companies doing these types of things

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 22 2:31 pm Post subject:
Current challenge is reminding myself that I should be cooking electric rather than gas Instant pots actually have a pretty decent sear function.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28239
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 22 7:48 am Post subject:
Ordered a wifi dongle for the solar and looking at a smart switch for the immersion heater. It seems like what I want to do is possible, but it will literally need me to write a program to integrate systems Smart homes are still very much on the bleeding edge.

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