Long range EVs

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Long range EVs
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tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 22 6:59 pm Post subject:
There's a long way to go in providing adequate charging infrastructure, but it will happen. Battery technology is improving rapidly, range vs weight, longevity, and charge speed are all on the brink of major advances. But there are plenty of people for whom EVs just won't work right now.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 22 10:13 pm Post subject:

Quote:

But there are plenty of people for whom EVs just won't work right now.

fossil merchants was my first thought

getting petrol from a livery stables was problematic, so grocers and pharmacists went for the market

on a more societal plan, offsetting the costs of creating "long range" EV power supplies against future sales might need central funding as seed money and still holds to the massively inefficient ways folk go from place to place and move goods

PS i went off petrol in 1973 when i first learnt about photochemical smog and greenhouse CO2 stuff

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9881
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 22 11:16 pm Post subject:

[quote="Mistress Rose]
As an aside, George Mombiot wrote an article in the Guardian saying he wished in retrospect that he had bought a gas boiler rather than 3 wood burning stoves. Can't think why he wants 3 as we manage quite well with one. I don't think it produces more particulates than the road outside, and it doesn't trigger problems for either my husband or son whos triggers appear to be cigarette smoke and some perfumes respectively.[/quote]

Yes, he says he should have put in an air source heat pump... into a house, by his own descriptions, that was badly built and old. I doubt the ASHP would have been that great in that house... which he sold, no doubt pocketing the profit from his refurbishment and presumably it still stands but is somebody else's problem while he can be smug in his new setup. I dont have a lot of time for him.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28234
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 6:56 am Post subject:

It's not really about where things are with EVs now but where it will be.

In the long run the infrastructure will happen even where it's on road parking.If you can get power, internet, phone lines and gas to homes and street lights, it's not outlandish to think you can get level one charging to a parked car.

Ranges are clearly going to get beyond what people should be driving without a break.

The price of production of an EV is clearly going to be or is below that of ICE.

Are there a few edge cases, almost certainly, but there surely still are places only a horse can get to.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 9:28 am Post subject:

jema wrote:

I disagree. It's got to the point where car companies are only selling electric cars so I would reasonably expect them to be equivalent to ICE. I was genuinely shocked when I bought a new car a couple of years ago to see there was nothing remotely suitable in an EV. When I replace the current car in say 5 years time I doubt there will be a vast improvement either. I certainly can't see costs coming down much, hopefully range will improve but not the cost.

I also can't see on street charging for many streets. It'll take decades just to plan what needs to be done and having lived places where it's taken decades just to upgrade phone lines (still waiting). None of that solves parking issues which councils have never got to grips with. Perhaps the plan is to price many people out of car ownership?

Again this is where range will become more important than ICE as I expect people will have to use charging points so we'll need far more than petrol pumps.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9881
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 10:07 am Post subject:
In my village there is so little parking, people park their cars on a patch of muddy wasteland and the gravel car park belonging to the church... the church are constantly trying to get them moved. I don't see these becoming charging points. Meanwhile in the nearest town, where there are always parking issues , they have removed 4 parking spaces to make 2 charging points, in the car park.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15967

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 10:11 am Post subject:

Yes, EVs may come to be the norm, but while the infrastructure is lacking something else may come along such as hydrogen. Many cities have a severe parking problem; there are cars parked each side of the road, and in some there is a problem getting a fire engine down the middle. There are street lights every 50-100 m, so how are you going to clear the space so people can take it in turns to charge and then park elsewhere? At present our local city cannot manage its sewage/stormwater system as the houses were thrown up about 150 years or so ago in long terraces and are still there, so a lot of work is going to be needed to update the electricity supply sufficiently. I agree battery storage is improving; it has been the clog in the system for a very long time and is still lagging behind a bit. Although EVs use a different battery, ICE cars still use lead acid that was used to run radios in the days most people were not on mains electricity.

Like you Treacodactyl we are going to have to decide within the next 5 years what car we are going to buy. At present we have an estate car which does all we want. A saloon won't have the carrying capacity, although son's Honda Jazz can carry an amazing amount. We found its shortcomings during a recent visit to Cornwall in frosty weather where our heavier car was rather more stable on icy roads. Our other problem is with our pickups; even the modern ICE ones are not much good for our needs, and at present I don't think there is an electric one in the UK that will go mainly off road along rough tracks, and carry what we want.

As far as particulates from wood burners is concerned, the original 'research' on which the legislation is based stated that the conclusion could be a factor of 10 out. Later measurement, which is by no means exact as wood smoke cannot be separated from other cellulose containing materials, suggests this is approximately right.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 12:30 pm Post subject:

the mail theme of today is homeless people prevent folk charging EVs

considering how that organization has presented environmental issues and behaved with those involved(my last interaction with a dm "reporter" was darkly joyful

and they have been very rude about close comrades) taking the view that the marines on snake island took seems very reasonable

"eco mob", ad hominin, misdirection, whataboutery, lies, and failure to point up even though they have a big finger and a toe viewing following, guilty as charged

"woke issues" hurrah for the blackshirts, GAC

any comment they have on any subject is highly likely to not be true or to promote a good idea, unless you play match the gusset to the outrage for excitement and then calm down with a fluffy animal story it has low appeal beyond studying the enemy thinking

exhibit A

hint the real story should be distribution of wealth, trying to mitigate co2 forcings, healthier air to breathe etc
not hobos will take your charger which is an instant emotional hit on the hard of thinking in support of the seven sisters

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 1:59 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

any comment they have on any subject is highly likely to not be true or to promote a good idea

In that case I don't need to worry about the this year being the hottest on record as the DM covered that quite a bit.

Having looked at the various tweets and other sources the Tesla queues did happen, have happened before and are likely to happen again. Personally I don't believe any of the news papers or sources, not even the BBC, without checking about. I often find the DM just runs countless stories, mostly for advertising. I am perhaps just as worried by what other sources tend to fail to report on.

To avoid any confusion I'm not defending the DM in any way.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 6:10 pm Post subject:
and breathe

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 22 6:44 pm Post subject:
probably too late to join the queue

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28234
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 22 7:56 am Post subject:

All I can say on price and range is check in this time next year.
battery cells due to go in cars soon have a lot more energy density.
Production price parity is about battery costs and those costs are going to reduce a lot.
A market with exponential graph that is slated to take over cannot expect to be entirely free of infrastructure headaches.
I am not for the moment suggesting EVs are suitable for all right now, there's not an EV I especially want!
We are at the blackberry phase of development, but this is moving faster than phones did.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15967

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 22 10:40 am Post subject:

All I can see in that DM story is that there are a lot of homeless people in that area. I can't see any reason why they should steal anything. The people I see who are, or claim to be, homeless are not the least bit intimidating, and most are very happy to be given food or drink and are quite polite. Perhaps they are different in the US.

One thing not discussed in that article on particulates is nutrition. Even rural workers were found to grow when fed properly pre-WWI. Similarly, those living downwind of mines and factory chimneys were more likely to be ill nourished as they would be the 'workers'. I am not saying there is nothing in it, but I think there is a lot more to do with general environment than is covered in that article. If you investigate one part of a persons life, you will be able to draw certain conclusions, but if you look at another aspect, the conclusions may be completely different.

Jema, you are probably right with battery technology, but the infrastructure will need to be there. Consider high speed broadband, or even mobile phone coverage in some places.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 22 12:15 pm Post subject:

the usa is similar to here and everywhere else, the homeless are people with all the variations implied by that, but they have more risks and insecurities than most of the homed.

there should be a whole ttdntas chapter on the subject as well as an ethical push to make involuntary homelessness impossible

odd that an EV thread should take such a magic roundabout as a route

to suggest a link between the two seems illogical, unless the logic is to associate fear and loathing of scapegoat victims with minor inconvenience to an advantage that undermines the fossil death spiral model

perhaps they pitched up there because EVs are not too bad for their asthma or long covid

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 22 1:50 pm Post subject:
via the medium of mr tesla's twitter platform that has readmitted some who need exposure the world is a very odd place if loki and a bond villain had....... etc or if loki and tesla had....... etc? whatever, loki is in the dobermonkey machine

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