rewilding, discuss?

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rewilding, discuss?
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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 22 4:43 pm Post subject:

Abandoned plantations are not much use for timber, carbon capture or biodiversity, time or fire will thin them and "wild wood" might replace them over a long time

selective clearing would be better, but is unlikely for assorted reasons related to money and ownership/covenants/legacy contracts/local bigotry etc

20 odd yrs ago i was offered "ownership" of a just over 10 acre derelict pit prop plantation in south yorkshire, even "owning" it would not make working it and creating a valuable future mixed wood possible for the above reasons

it could have been done by removing the 15% of the trees that were decent timber to fill the chainsaw and pay the for the horse, weed trees, pencil etc for domestic fuel, clearing for veg garden by log cabin, replant for diversity and long term good stuff

green home with a potential small income and long term good works seems ideal
trying to do it does made me consider how stupid and selfish some people are about such things

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 22 7:57 am Post subject:

Yes, too much woodland is left unmanaged. It can be for reasons such as those you give Dpack, but sometimes it is pure economics and changes in use of the timber. Our woodland has two areas of plantation; one of mixed native hardwood (if you count sycamore as native) planted between 1935 and 1955 which has been heavily thinned at least twice to our knowledge in the last 40 years. No idea what it was planted for. The other is almost entirely beech which we believe was planted for paper pulp. There is no virgin hardwood pulp mill in the UK now, so to be used for its original purpose it would have to be shipped to Scandinavia then the paper shipped back for use. We have repurposed it for firewood, but with increased legislation (supposedly because of particulates cf new coal mine) this is becoming more difficult, so a lot will go into charcoal production.

A felling licence is usually needed to fell more than a small amount of timber each year, as is right, but having just fought my way through the paperwork for a management plan plus assorted forms which will give us another 10 years felling licence, it isn't the easiest thing in the world. A separate felling licence can be obtained, but that is nearly as bad to apply for.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 23 7:33 am Post subject:

Can't remember where I put the other stuff, but several areas of downland grass have been left unmown round here at the moment and they are really lovely. The one between us and the shops hasn't been mown for a bit, and was covered in flowers when I saw it yesterday. There were a lot of hawkbits, scabious, lady's and I think hedge bedstraw, restharrow, one little bit of wild marjoram, which I hadn't seen there before, wild thyme, great knapweed, birds foot trefoil and several others. In the other direction, the harebells have made a come back after being mown at the wrong time of year for several years, and I found some pyramid orchids there too.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 24 5:00 pm Post subject:

woof but i would say that

he seems to have a similar attitude to myself re uplands and sheep, general "rewilding" and environmental improvement

if you don't ask they can't say no, that works with loads of little and larger things

if you tell them, they may do as they are told if they are given no other option apart from your choice of carrot to go with the stick

wolves are ace* and would fit into some rewilded places a treat
if they can pretend to be dogs they are quite urbane bon viveurs in an urban setting, part wolf, even mostly wolf, can easily pass for a dog, i met one full who was no bother to walk off a lead through streatham with my half on the other heel,

, so cool a well known local supermodel would stop for a chat with a crusty with mutts

* a tail from the darkside of wolf lore, first hand account made the starving wolves more scary than the nazi hunter teams when wounded and evading in a Norwegian winter.
apparently the wolves were far more determined and stayed with him24 hrs longer and into Sweden where he lost them in the first village

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 24 7:19 am Post subject:

In two minds about that article. Sheep have their place, such as keeping downland open and encouraging the downland plants, but not altogether sure about all 'rewilding' as I have said before. I can understand why urban populations like to see wolves; not sure they would really be that keen on watching a wolf kill and eat a deer in their front garden in sight of their living room window. We have enough trouble round here with people shooting deer, and that is a clean kill.

This man has done good work with water voles and also with some other species. He is providing habitats for various species that are not natural; same as providing nest sites for raptors in areas that wouldn't be their territory as no natural nest sites for them.

I believe in reintroducing species that would be native to the habitat, improving habitat, but not really going all out as he has and will possibly need a lot of work to return it to its natural state in the future. Dumps of concrete may provide adder homes, but is going to be there for rather a long time at the detriment to other things. In other words, he could be destroying one sort of habitat to provide others.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 24 11:59 am Post subject:

i have no idea how the ecosystems and microclimates might change, diverse re-crittering and eco-engineering may create some biological resilience

see farming with dynamite and acorn slingshot etc

it would be interesting if difficult for me to do boots on the hill and see how the malaigh moor rewilding for caledonian forest is progressing after a couple of decades

a few wolves would be ideal to make the fences redundant(deer could jump them and the coos went through them by force or around through the lochs

spose that is paper plans on the real world ground)

phibs are very good subjects for a helping hand and if a few out of a hundred raised and released re-establish a population or create a new one tis a good thing
ditto the likes of panda beetles

trees etc

his style is more likely to improve matters long term as owt from a "committee" with "approvals"

NorthernMonkeyGirl

Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 4630
Location: Peeping over your shoulder

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 24 9:46 pm Post subject:
From what I have seen, the guy is a self-righteous tosser who doesn't care about anyone else's experience or opinions. I've seen that personality many times, and been the clean-up crew behind them more than once.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 8:16 am Post subject:
Certainly that was what I was thinking about the concrete dumps.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 11:06 am Post subject:

having seen the dismal acres of dead whips in tubes and ignorant destruction of grassland diversity by "experts", i have mixed feelings about them
some are experts, most are doing a job they are not expert in

as to getting things done, doing them is far better than asking quango to consider them

shall i explain about having to insist a national park authority actually did what it said it should do in its foundation documents?

i hope the national trust are letting that no longer at risk site remain "un-managed"
the useful experts were the archeologists, the bat people, the moss people and the lawyers and assorted concerned citizens

my little temperate rain forest? and many random glades, diversification of species, introduction of suitable species, captive raise for release with phibs etc ?

i dont mind giving panda beetle wardens or friends of the meadow a bit of help, they do need it, even basics like fencing pliers and choppy tools were beyond their practical experience, nice folk no idea how to cut reeds when chest deep in waders to open up the best bit for the damselflies away from terrestrial predators that get them on marginal plants as they dry out from hatch
knowing the place well counts a lot more than files and directives

trying to get such things "permitted" brings out the trooper in me, it needs doing, shall we give it a go?

there are two small orchards,(and one with an informal above head height pruning arrangement which is where i should have started and developed from) the effort could have done far more good than several years of official and less official negotiations

official has not got clones of two un-named(see official)old apples in its very diverse 7x2m yard, which is also home to a full food chain up to cat 4 avian, grin coming to dine is rather special and did not require any permissions to make it very untidy with crevices and mess and stuff, you have seen the wildlife pictures, imagine that scaled up and suitable for the locations available

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9887
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 11:37 am Post subject:

NorthernMonkeyGirl wrote:

From what I have seen, the guy is a self-righteous tosser who doesn't care about anyone else's experience or opinions. I've seen that personality many times, and been the clean-up crew behind them more than once.

that's how he comes over to me.
I keep saying it, but I worry about good pasture land, or other agricultural land being removed from being productive in order to re-wild, without much consideration from where our food will come from. If not here, then from elsewhere, where they might be taking down rainforests to grow crops to transport miles to feed us.

That is rewilding here and deforesting there.
He might be smug about his piles of concrete offering a good habitat for adders, but I presume he also eats like the rest of us, so presumably he gets to be smug whilst letting someone else do the actual farming.

I don't like people who don't feel they need to listen to anyone else, and just go ahead and rewild or introduce species *to land they don't own* without proper agreement.

*edit to clarify I meant about people releasing wildlife or plant species to land that they don't own or manage

Last edited by Nicky cigreen on Tue Mar 12, 24 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 12:42 pm Post subject:

if it is good pasture rewild it as better pasture, no chemicals, soil build, mixed salad for the grazers

are the banks of kernow, piles of rocks or a super microclimate and habitat complex for a huge diversity of life after a few thousand years?
my antique brick and worm bank is doing develop at times ten for natural diversity

is giving a new "hedge" a century of seeds a bad thing? why would i even ask?

my little rain forest grew in less time than the admin would have taken, it is there and developing until somebody or something alters it

the location and admin might make that tricky for them

i was offered a gift of a redundant pit prop plantation of about ten acres, to work it and turn it into a mixed wood had paperwork that made it impractical, turning down such a thing cos of "hoops" is not ideal
the practical stuff and self funding it is not easy but possible

this needed doing, keep yer clipboard on yer shelf is usually quite resource efficient

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9887
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 1:17 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

are the banks of kernow, piles of rocks or a super microclimate and habitat complex for a huge diversity of life after a few thousand years?
my antique brick and worm bank is doing develop at times ten for natural diversity

Cornish hedges - which look like dry stone walls to others - are undoubtedly a good habitat for lots of creatures, and probably important to use the local stone if you want to encourage the local flora - concrete is not the local stone.
I don't think it is necessary to convert pasture land to piles of concrete rubble land though - when there are hedges and small corners of most farms doing this work already. On my own mini patch I have an area where I stack up useful rocks and bricks for future use, and I have grass snakes and slow worms making good use of it, but it isn't where food or grazing could be grown.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 1:23 pm Post subject:
yes.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 1:45 pm Post subject:

considering the nature of the enemy

asymmetric every time will have most effect

pleading with the enemy or their minions may get minor concessions if it suits them
or if you give them no choice

shall we give it a go is usually more effective, where did that temperate rain forest come from is something few ask once they are delighted by it

ASF eco troop, local and global have risked all and sometimes achieved good things
one alone or many together they get it right or wrong, right more often than "official" is able to do

if piles of rubble are what the chap thinks are required on that bit of his field he can put them on, he is probably right, he knows the place very well and has some idea as to how to micro rewild that 20 tons on 10m sq or whatever with a gappy heap

i am very familiar with brownfield ecology, west yorkshire rust belt kid with a liking for abandoned mines and quarries, piles of rubble are ace once they have been there for a while, see banks and bocage or endcliff or my little temperate rain forest

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 24 3:40 pm Post subject:

meet a few of the enemy wherever whenever however etc

take a boomer control deck, press 9 for an outside line and take advice from yer mum how to proceed, then redial and negotiate with its previous "owners" gets a plutonium cross from me

although it changed nothing at big scale it made the owners more cautious of random challenges, which might be a bit safer

there are more unbelievable but true stories than that very edited highlight

don't ask if a refusal is likely but the task is valid ,do or demand

some may not like my "dirty pigeon" taming, i have a few chums who would be able to come home with the message if needed so.....
and they are fun and very well dressed, if a bit fighty sometimes

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