MBAs in prison

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MBAs in prison
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iaf

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 168

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 13 10:47 pm Post subject:

Dartmoor will shut, just the same as many others, the effects will be terrible-on many people.

The priority for all public sector is too save money-not many people have said no don't make the cuts...But we have gone off topic, and the points I was making are about people putting something back-retribution or rehabilitation? I don't agree MBAs are the most effective way of doing that. Crime =victims, end of. Victims deserve something back, people should be punished, potential crime breakers deterred.

To some that seems to be offensive, let's wait and see if they feel the same if their families are made to suffer (no mine hasn't, but that doesn't mean no empathy for those who have). I posted one about older offenders-consider what their offences might be...

Nature'sgrafter

Joined: 22 Feb 2012
Posts: 527
Location: Sanday , Orkney

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 13 11:07 pm Post subject:

My comments were not an attempt at deflection but an expression of concern about the roots of the strength of your comments Iaf I'm sorry if that seamed as an over personalization.
I'm still attempting to bring the topic back to rehabilitation and the appropriate ways to do so.
Justice is being served by depriving the person of their freedom. I understand that to some victims and their supporters that this will never be enough however I joined this debate to defend the principle that prisoners need to be educated so that upon release they can become productive citizens again. if all we do is lock them up and forget them all we are achieving is vengeance.
Also I have finished reading the report and fail to see how conditions for and how we treat remand prisoners is relevant to this topic?

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 8:04 am Post subject:

Each crime, the victim and the offender are individuals.

To most of us, I expect being locked up would be a pretty severe punishment, but think about someone living on the streets and having to beg to eat. They have somewhere warm and dry to sleep, are fed, and have a more secure future, until they are released.

We have been the victims of a few crimes; vandalism, burglary and anti-social behaviour. I would like to meet the people concerned, in the case of the vandalism and bad behaviour; I don't think they really understood how their 'having a good time' was upsetting to us. In the case of the burglary, in one case the police were able to retrieve the stolen item within a couple of days, although they couldn't prove anything, and in the other, they had a pretty good idea, and I wouldn't want to meet the person they suspected, as he is really bad news.

Where possible, prisoners should be given the chance of education, gaining skills etc. so that when they come out they have a chance to do something other than get back into the way of life that caused them to offend in the first place, if that is what is needed. There is of course 'white collar crime' where the person uses their brains and training in the wrong way, for which the cure is perhaps to give them more constructive things to think about if possible.

Perhaps where the system goes wrong is that they treat everyone the same, as do schools, the NHS and any other large organisation dealing with lots of people.

iaf

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 168

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 9:18 am Post subject:

Nature'sgrafter wrote:

Some people need to be educated (whether prisoners or not); I have posted a lot of links to try and demonstrate as Mistress Rose says all are not the same. The last link was to highlight that there are more things to consider than just educating a person in custody-keeping them alive is probably one of the most important, but if you were the victim of a serious crime would you really be worried about that? Maybe, maybe not. Those able to take MBA and anything more than a very basic course, would be guilty of a serious crime for which they will have been awarded a long tariff/sentence-otherwise they wouldn't have the time would they?
I have not labelled any prisoner, in fact the only label I used was 'victim', which is a factor or crime whether or not you agree (see you fourth point posted somewhere above). Personally I believe you should re-visit your comments about victims, but that is for your conscience not mine.
Rehabilitation? Of course it should be one of the aims of prison, I think it starts with the individual offender's attitude to his/her crime; if they don't have empathy for the victim, how are they properly to go straight, especially if they are completing a sentence long enough to complete an MBA? The other prisoners may have drug/alcohol dependency, how will they go straight without wanting to be clean?
If you're really sorry for the crime, surely you would want to restore something in the victim's life? At least try to make good?
I'm not talking throw away the key etc etc, just calling for a reality check on how society views crime and its effects and how best to make sure it doesn't happen again-in my experience only those incarcerated for serious crimes have enough time to complete degree courses, those doing smaller sentences will be back. Some are from impoverished backgrounds-is that really an excuse, I resided in Children's homes myself and was homeless as a young adult, so I do understand some of the perspectives you quote, doesn't erode personal responsibility or autonomy.
How would you reduce recidivism with the fastest growing age group in the modern prison?

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 9:40 am Post subject:

Just going back to my earlier post. One of the things that I can't seem to get my head around is that someone can commit a terrible crime and then is housed, clothed and fed at 'our' expense. Having an expensive education for free (with no worries about paying bills, tuition fees, student loans, etc) just makes things feel even more cock-eyed.

I'm not one for revenge/retribution (I think some people might regard me as a wishy-washy liberal) and can see the obvious need to do something to stop people doing 'bad' things over and over. Clearly just locking people up does not work.

Perhaps 'rehabilitation' should be paid for by the criminal - say given in the form of a loan - something you have to pay back (including your MBA fees). Everyone on the outside has to pay for everything, so why not those on the inside?

Perhaps the victims (or their families) in some crimes should also have some say in when the perpetrator has done enough to make up for/repay the wrong they have done.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 9:52 am Post subject:

I kind of share the dilemma. But, I'm not sure saddling people with debt would help them stay away from crime. These are people who have previously broken rules for various reasons. I'm not certain they'd accept repaying a financial debt as an extra burden to keep to.

Clearly, this probably applies to armed robbers, burglars and thieves more than rapists or whatever.

Perhaps burning them *is* simpler. And would help solve the fuel crisis.

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 9:55 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

I don't think I'd be offering it as a choice to pay back or not it.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 10:04 am Post subject:
But, how do you usefully enforce the pay back with someone who's 'occupation' is an armed bank robber?

Sam White

Joined: 30 Aug 2013
Posts: 17
Location: On a hillside near Caerphilly.

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 13 10:36 am Post subject:

Interesting discussion. The MBA programme reminds me a little of Bastoy Prison in Norway.

It would be good to know what the cost of recidivism (the judicial system, imprisonment, etc) is versus the cost of rehabilitation in the form of programmes such as the MBA or Bastoy. It would also be interesting to see how much successfully rehabilitated individuals could go on to contribute to society in the form of taxes and reduced criminal damage/loss as a result of gainful employment.

A longitudinal study of the effects of a higher reform rate might also be worthwhile; could a reformed parent be the key to reducing crime statistics in the long term? If so, surely we should be doing what we can to enable rehabilitation for the good of society... Studies (2) (3) have shown that kids born to a criminal parent are more likely to receive a custodial sentence themselves.

Last edited by Sam White on Thu Dec 19, 13 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 13 8:06 am Post subject:

Otley, I understand that dilemma. As a product of the period when it was possible to get a degree or other qualifications without having to put yourself in debt, my similar wishy-washy liberalism says that all should have a chance to get educated without having to pay tuition fees. I realise that I was very fortunate, neither my parents nor my son had that luxury.

Rehabilitation must be the answer to reducing crime. I am sure many of you know more about the prison population than I do, but those with mental problems, 'learning difficulties' of all sorts from dyslexia to very low IQ, as far as I am aware, make up a disproportionate percentage. Add to those people with addictions, who don't see any other way of managing their lives, and that leaves you with a hard core of real criminals. Perhaps trying to sort out some way that the ones above can live after prison might be a good start, either education, proper health care, or in some cases, hostels so they have somewhere to go for help. Not the complete answer, but might help.

iaf

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 168

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 13 9:48 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

By Hostels, do you mean approved premises?

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 13 10:06 pm Post subject:

I was thinking more of when our local mental hospital used to send some people to places like the Dockyard to work, but they went back to the hospital at night. They didn't really need treatment, just somewhere with support to help them live fairly normal lives. Some people offend because they can't cope with the everyday stresses of normal life, and I was thinking more of them. They don't really need a mental hospital, but a hostel where there is help with things like food and all the day to day things they might find difficult. Something like this might help people who would otherwise be homeless, need support for staying away from drugs or alcohol misuse, and help them to get something out of life while keeping them out of trouble and therefore prison.

iaf

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 168

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 13 10:08 pm Post subject:
Have you had much experience of recidivist offenders?

12Bore

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 9089
Location: Paddling in the Mersey

Posted: Thu Dec 19, 13 10:13 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

Hmmm, I've often had similar thoughts...

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 13 7:42 am Post subject:

None whatsoever, but as I said in my previous posts, every offender is different. I know some of them are going to be trouble whatever you do, but some are in prison because of petty offending caused by not understanding or not being able to cope with the world around them. There is just nowhere for the people that used to live in mental hospitals to go now, and some will just leave prison and end up on the streets where there is more chance of reoffending and getting in with the wrong people.

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