Pesticides. The birds & the bees.

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Pesticides. The birds & the bees.
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Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15985

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 6:38 am Post subject:

I don't think you can rely on information given by vegans, as with due respect to any on here, most have an axe to grind. Rob, I don't think, seeing pictures of where your cattle graze, that you need to worry about water consumption.

Management is not just about farming. We used to see lots of kestrels round here, but then the Highways Agency decided that they needed to cut all the vegetation along the motorway/dual carriageway for miles all in one go. Of course this did for the vole and mouse population, and even though the vegetation has grown back, we don't see anything like as many kestrels still.

The grass and wildflower problem has been going on for a long time. During the 1950s and 60s farmers were being encouraged to reseed pasture with 'improved grassland'. The area we used to get lots of cowslips and even bee orchids was resown, and was never the same again. I don't know what it is like now as it is private and grazed within an inch of its life (or closer) by horses. Another area of downland is open to the public, but because so many people exercise their dogs on it the flat parts of the lynchets are reduced to poor grass, and even the slopes are being damaged.

Most of these are not down to farmers, but other agencies, and all have adversely affected wildlife.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 8:00 am Post subject:
Why has veganism come into this discussion & why shouldn't you trust them?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 8:34 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Why has veganism come into this discussion & why shouldn't you trust them?

One provided me with the Nat Geo link about diet. It didn't support their view. I was also recently in an online discussion regarding the decline of wildflower meadows with someone who throught that their dietary choice was supporting them - they went very quiet when I pointed out the big pile of obvious. Most people are not as involved in food production and therefore don't realise what are myths and what is real.

And of course noone believes the producer, 'cause what would they know...?

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 10:11 am Post subject:

'One' is an individual, saying you shouldn't trust vegans because they have an axe to grind is a very broad statement.
Especially when people choose a particular diet/lifestyle for many various reasons.

Misinformation abounds everywhere & from all sides of the argument.
Big business is very good at propaganda & farming is a big business. Much that I read in the trade press has a very skewed perspective, & often far from the facts.
But I don't say you shouldn't trust farmers, they have an axe to grind.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 10:17 am Post subject:
That's why I talk to people and establish their reasons, rather than making assumptions.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 4:33 pm Post subject:
This is the pdf that I was referring to earlier(UN) & one IMHO anyone interested in sustainable food production should read. United Nations trade & environment review 2013 'Wake up before it is to late'.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 4:54 pm Post subject:
It appears to concur with my points made above.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 6:02 pm Post subject:
Your interpretation not mine

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 15 7:44 pm Post subject:
I guess that's the effect of a different perspective. Or the kestrels addling my mind.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15985

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 6:29 am Post subject:

I suggested that vegans have an axe to grind. I may have been unlucky in the ones I have talked to, but they seem to think that cutting down rain forests to provide them with soya is better for the environment that keeping cows (except to look pretty or for conservation purposes) on land such as Rob uses. I am sure there are plenty who know what is what, but sadly I haven't met them.

There are some farmers who seem to be rather blinkered too; hence the argument that they have to have neonics or they can't grow OSR. It will be more difficult and may well need some careful crop rotation, but if it is eventually banned world wide they may not have any choice.

In every walk of life you have people who can only see one side of an argument, and manage to forget all facts that don't help their argument.

I will try to read that link when I have a few minutes to myself.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 7:08 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

You are both right & both wrong.

Most of the soya grown on former rainforest is grown for livestock feed. A small fraction of soya production goes direct to human consumption.
I had a similar argument with a vegan friend of mine who claimed almond milk was better than dairy because it uses less water.
It may well do, but the almond orchards of California are vast monocultures that don't even have grass under the trees.
Bare sterile earth poisoned to the point any other life struggles to survive there. Having seen how they are grown I now avoid almonds wherever possible.
If she had said I don't like dairy because I disagree with calves being slaughtered at birth just so I can have my pint I would agree.
I have no axe to grind against almond growers or dairy farmers but IMHO modern agricultural practices in all sectors are currently unsustainable, & in many parts of the industry more to do with propping up other big business like agrochem, machinery & finance than securing the nations food supply.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 7:30 am Post subject:

& right on cue look what just popped into my inbox.
Press Release

Shock and dismay as the EU allows a new bee-killing insecticide

Quote:

On 27th July 2015, the European Commission and EU Members States authorised SULFOXAFLOR (1), a new neuro-toxic insecticide produced by Dow AgroSciences. The political decision to allow the substance into the market was taken despite the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) warnings on its risks to bees but also to small mammals.

Among its conclusions, the EFSA report explains that �with the available assessments a high risk to bees was not excluded for field uses � (2).

The decision is even more absurd when considered that SULFOXAFLOR acts on bees� in a similar way as insecticides from neonicotinoids family, which are currently partially banned in Europe. In the United States where sulfoxaflor-based pesticides have been marketed since 2013, the beekeeping sector has been pushing the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to withdrawn it from the market (3).

(My bold underline)
Looks like the kestrels had better stay on the motorways for the foreseeable future.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15985

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 8:09 am Post subject:

It makes no sense whatsoever. I suppose this is another thing that the beekeeping fraternity, people interested in wildlife etc. will have to fight against then.

Tavascarow, one thing that concerns me about veganism is that they don't restrict themselves to mainly locally grown food. I hear talk of soya, but never about eating locally grown beans and peas, or have I just not been listening properly?

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 8:34 am Post subject:
The argument of calves slaughtered at birth whether by veggies,vegans or animal welfare groups just does`nt hold water anymore,a visit to your local cattle mart calf sales will prove that.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 15 9:31 am Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

The argument of calves slaughtered at birth whether by veggies,vegans or animal welfare groups just does`nt hold water anymore,a visit to your local cattle mart calf sales will prove that.

Aren't male holstein calves still shot, or are they going into the veal market now? I'll be honest I'm out of touch.
My father crossed most of his small dairy herd with native beef breeds like Angus & Hereford & raised the calves to beef age. He bred his dairy replacements from his best cows & put them to a Friesian bull. Even the Friesian bull calves joined the beef herd although they took longer to raise & fatten (+36 months).
But my fathers dairy cows lived well into their teens so he didn't need to raise so many replacements.
Quite different to your modern Holstein milker who only goes through three or four lactations before she's culled.
As an omnivore it's not the loss of life but the waste of life I object to.

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