Pesticides. The birds & the bees.

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Pesticides. The birds & the bees.
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Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 9:06 am Post subject:

Also many of the stores on suckler herds are sold on & fattened conventionally so the farms can maintain cow numbers at the maximum.
So saying suckler beef is more environmentally friendly is again a misnomer if the stores are fattened on corn & soya.
The farming industry & the NFU in particular have been very good at promoting the green & pleasant land safe in our hands image, but that's farther from the truth now than it's ever been.
Broad statements like we need more of this without addressing the detail wont work.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 12:29 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Broad statements like we need more of this without addressing the detail wont work.

Exactly!

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 12:32 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Saying we need more suckler beef is just painting over the cracks.

Thankfully noone has said that. What I did say is that there aren't as many around, inside or out, and we need more to graze the grasslands. We'll only manage that if more of the meat they eat is consumed (or wasted, if you can subsidise the maintenance of the grasslands with another income source).

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 12:47 pm Post subject:
But that doesn't address the use of pesticides which is what this thread is about!! Lol.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46235
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 1:11 pm Post subject:
in some ways it does cos grazed herds live on un pesticided grass and salads where as intensive ones eat pesticide heavy arable raised fodder grazed meat is not killing bees etc by how it gets fed and well grazed areas have a huge biodiversity of ,among other things, wild bees

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 1:45 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

But that doesn't address the use of pesticides which is what this thread is about!!
Lol.

I never use pesticides, or fertilisers, and on the SSSI parts I can't, even if I wanted to, so it goes ungrazed if I don't. The other two thirds of our land is not protected, other than by virtue of being under our control.

You may think I am exercising my vested interest, but if that was the case don't you think I'd just be using fertilisers & pesticides? As it is, if I do well, without using them, my neighbours will think 'hang on a minute...'.

As it is I'm looking the other way and thinking the opposite.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 2:34 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

in some ways it does cos grazed herds live on un pesticided grass and salads where as intensive ones eat pesticide heavy arable raised fodder
grazed meat is not killing bees etc by how it gets fed and well grazed areas have a huge biodiversity of ,among other things, wild bees

I don't deny grass fed beef farmers use less pesticides than salad growers.
But the pesticides they use are having as damaging an impact on the environment.
My neighbours pastures are barren. There are no bees there because there are no flowers for them to forage.
By spraying a broadleaf herbicide he has killed virtually all plant life other than the rye grass he wants & docks which ironically are what he sprayed against.
He's not the exception Rob is, so saying eating meat is better for the environment is a pile of pants (with the greatest respect).
We need a way of defining between farmers like Rob & farmers like my neighbour.
It's why I promote organics.
Not because I don't see the faults that within the organic movement, but because at the moment that's the only clear way of telling if pesticides & excess fertiliser has been used. I'd be happy if there where other ways but there aren't at present.
My butcher can tell me if the beef he's selling is grass fed but he can't tell me if the pastures where treated with selective herbicides.
He can't tell me if the cattle had pour on treatments for parasites.
Only an organic standard can tell me that.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 2:37 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

But that doesn't address the use of pesticides which is what this thread is about!!
Lol.

See above.
As I said earlier in this thread I am supportive of you & of others like you.
But as consumers we need to be able to identify your product so those of us that care can differentiate.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 2:45 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

But that doesn't address the use of pesticides which is what this thread is about!!
Lol.

See above.
As I said earlier in this thread I am supportive of you & of others like you.
But as consumers we need to be able to identify your product so those of us that care can differentiate.

Of course, but I can't think of a better way to differentiate than buying direct from source.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 15 2:54 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

My butcher can tell me if the beef he's selling is grass fed but he can't tell me if the pastures where treated with selective herbicides.
He can't tell me if the cattle had pour on treatments for parasites.
Only an organic standard can tell me that.

No, an organic standard cannot do that, only a producer can tell you that information.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15985

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 15 5:42 am Post subject:
I would agree that the only way you can get detail about the way cattle or any other animal was reared, or how a vegetable product was grown is to buy direct. This can be mail order from a distance, as with Rob, or from proper Farmers Markets.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 15 9:10 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

No, an organic standard cannot do that, only a producer can tell you that information.

& there are many farmers who will tell you one thing but will happily doing the other.
There will always be cheats in any system but with organic accreditation you have a further level of assurance.
It would be nice if we could all walk down to the farm gate & see how farmer Jones cares for his land & his animals but the majority can't or don't want to.
The vast majority of food is bought in supermarkets where there is zero contact with the producer & just pretty (misleading) pictures on the packaging.
People haven't got time to visit you for their meat & visit someone else ten miles away for their dairy & yet someone else a farther ten miles away for their fruit & veg.
I'm not attacking your way of doing things, just saying it will always be a minority market, & if we want to protect the environment we have to change the way the majority of our food is produced.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 15 10:26 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

No, an organic standard cannot do that, only a producer can tell you that information.

Why? You're saying that everyone else has to change but the consumer, which is a ridiculous expectation. You're comparing apples with oranges in comparing someone visiting the farm every time with a single organic inspector who visits periodically. The rest of the time the compliance is assumed, just as it is with someone who buys direct. Organic is no less open to fraud than any other food production, but with shorter supply chains there is much less opportunity for fraud.

Like you say, the misleading labels in the supermarket are a problem, but that's no less significant for organic produce - I imagine your average consumer doesn't realise that organic meat means that the animals travel further to slaughter, but the organic labels don't point that out either. I'm not attacking organic either - I buy a lot of organic produce myself, if I can't get direct.

However, the choice is already there for everyone who wants it - most supermarkets stock organic and mail order has made sure that the vast majority of consumers have more & more access to a wide variety of produce from around the country and beyond. If consumers aren't choosing it you can't blame the producers who will change according to market demands, providing it is practical & possible to do so.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 15 10:37 am Post subject:
And at the end of the day, you can tell lies but the birds and the bees are pretty hard to fake!

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 15 12:12 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

And at the end of the day, you can tell lies but the birds and the bees are pretty hard to fake!

Be honest. Within twenty miles of you how many other farmers are using no pesticides? minimal fertilizer?
As you say 'the birds & the bees don't lie' they just die.
The state of the nations farmland is proof enough that what we have doesn't work.
If you want the last word then fine.
But IMHO the consumer doesn't have time to drive to yours to check you are what you say & buy their meat, then drive god knows how far to another farm with equal environmental credentials to buy their dairy & again somewhere else for their fruit & veg.
They don't have the option & of those few that do, only a fraction will have heard of Rob & his fantastic beef.
But they have all heard of Tesco, Asda, Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl, M&S, Waitrose, CoOp. (Have I missed any?).
You are a drop in the ocean & your naivety that big business doesn't pull the strings in these matters & its all the shoppers fault leaves me wondering sometimes.
Maybe if we could develop the farmers market so it was there 24/7 like Tesco.
But when Mr & Mrs consumer finishes work the farmers market has closed & it's only in town once a week/fortnight/month.
& all a farmers market is is local produce, there's little there that's not damaging the environment in the same way as the produce in the supermarket.
Labelling of food with it's environmental credentials & promoting why is a way forward for all consumers, not just those that have the time.
The only people doing that at the moment are the organic & biodynamic movements.
The mainstream despite what you say, are still trying to discredit them. (as you are, even though you admit to considering joining).
With campaigns & media coverage like the one a few years ago saying organic food is no more healthy than non organic.
Conveniently ignoring the damage it does to the environment. & what pesticide residues might be doing to human health.
From where I'm standing the NFU appear to be speaking more for the agrochem industry than the tens of thousands of small farms they should be looking after.

The only way around this, that I can see is major taxation of damaging systems & grant aid for those like yourself that aren't damaging but encouraging biodiversity.
Add to that food labelling that states pesticides in the same way it states E numbers currently, & I'll be a happy bunny.
A major pipe dream.

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