Wild, Natural, Boring?

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Wild, Natural, Boring?
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Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15984

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 15 7:41 am Post subject:

I don't know a lot about moors, but they do support a particular ecosystem. If they became woodland, some of this would die out and a different ecosystem would take over.

Our downs were formed by grazing and if the grazing ceases they become woodland. We lose the plants associated with the downland turf and all the associated insects etc.

So yes, we have to choose, and in that way it isn't 'natural', but choosing to maintain habitats that are becoming rare is at least one way to keep the ecosystems associated with them.

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 15 8:24 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

I don't know a lot about moors, but they do support a particular ecosystem. If they became woodland, some of this would die out and a different ecosystem would take over.

You're right - but it doesn't have to be exclusively one or the other - more of a greater variety.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 15 9:08 am Post subject:
So what's the problem with nature reserves? Is this purely semantics? We have the opposite problem here and work goes on to keep trees from encroaching due to a lack of management.

buzzy

Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: In a small wood on the edge of the Huntingdonshire Wolds

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 15 10:14 am Post subject:

OtleyLad wrote:

Mistress Rose wrote:

We have to decide which time we want, and that is artificial, but can be useful. ... if you manage the habitat knowing some of the species that are present and what the habitat used to be, there is a good chance of the species survival and increase.

This is the truth of it. We decide - so its not a 'nature' reserve at all.

I'm not against preserving different habitats at all. Just that perhaps we should be more specific about what we are preserving.

Here in Wharfedale most of the high ground is 'moorland' - heather/whinberry/bracken on thin acidic soil/peat. Left to its own devices it would resort to woodland. The lack of trees means you get lots of big views when you're up there but its pretty barren really.
The moors have been managed (mostly for grouse shooting) for a long time so most people view them as 'natural' and don't want them changed (and the peaty runnoff pollutes the water). Shame as they could be a lot more productive and support more wildlife if people were more flexible about how they are managed.

Well, it's not 'natural' but most reserves are created to preserve 'nature' - that is, a specific stage in habitat development that supports a particular group of species. What has sometimes been forgotten is that that particular stage has been arrived at by a certain type of management, and management needs to continue if those species are to have the best chance of continuing. Visitors who don't realise that are often horrified by necessary management - I wouldn't be surprised if people on here could tell you tales about coppicing!

Henry

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15984

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 7:17 am Post subject:

Definitely Buzzy. Our coppice hasn't been cut for over 50 years, and we will probably never get it back to the state it was then, but by starting the coppice cycle again, we are getting woodland plants and animals that haven't been seen for a very long time.

The natural state of our woodland appears to be a lovely tangle; dark, damp, not much good for anything but the odd fern to live in. We have one reserved area like that, and another which we need to do some work in urgently seems to be trying to resemble it.

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 7:37 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

So what's the problem with nature reserves? Is this purely semantics?

We have the opposite problem here and work goes on to keep trees from encroaching due to a lack of management.

It was more about who decides (and by what process) which particular habitat and species mix will be chosen to survive.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 8:19 am Post subject:

Well the land managers and/or the legislators decided at present, in addition to the public, either through trusts or their buying habits. I know that isn't always perfect but it works as well as it can.

Personally I'd prefer it if everyone was forced to consume more products from well managed grazing & woodlands, but it's difficult enough getting people who care about the environment to do that, never mind everyone else.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 8:31 am Post subject:
Then all you'd have to do would be to define well managed. Suspect definitions may vary. Shareholders at Monsanto and you may disagree slightly.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 8:53 am Post subject:
Forcing generally bypasses consent.

OtleyLad

Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 2737
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 9:13 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Is there any kind of labelling/branding that informs the customer?

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 9:19 am Post subject:

OtleyLad wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Is there any kind of labelling/branding that informs the customer?

I'm guessing free range and organic would be the closest wide spread schemes? And they're pretty poor. As always, knowing your farmer is the answer, but not practical for most.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 9:25 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

OtleyLad wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Is there any kind of labelling/branding that informs the customer?

I'm guessing free range and organic would be the closest wide spread schemes? And they're pretty poor. As always, knowing your farmer is the answer, but not practical for most.

You mean they can't be arsed. The biggest barrier to buying direct for the majority of people remains not being sufficiently bothered about it.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 9:25 am Post subject:

The problems are caused (IMHO) by people who see human activity as being somehow outside nature.
Most things done in the name of progress have been conducted by groups or individuals who see themselves apart from, not part of nature.
It's a Victorian, Judeo/Christian hangup that man has dominion over nature, well past its sell by date.
Whatever we do has an impact, usually detrimental.
So by accepting everything (including human activity) is a part of nature, which it is as we all live on the same planet. & acting positively to rectify some of the mistakes made previously by the greedy or ignorant, we can help rare & endangered species, & habitats survive & thrive through habitat management.
I'd prefer the whole environment to be nature friendly but it's not.
Nature reserves are close to being open air zoo exhibits but at the same time essential just as captive breeding programs are in zoos.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 9:44 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

The problems are caused (IMHO) by people who see human activity as being somehow outside nature.

Spot on. Living landscapes all the way.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 15 10:40 am Post subject:

OtleyLad wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Is there any kind of labelling/branding that informs the customer?

There is lots of labelling and branding, which is as diverse as the agricultural industry. That's the main issue really, branding that works involves having exactly the same thing in every outlet throughout the globe. Trying to fit sustainable agriculture into this business model is bound to fall short. That's why localism is so important, it doesn't rely upon labels and branding, more upon people and relationships, and it's naturally more difficult to deceive someone if they can come and visit you.

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