it will be interesting to see how this changes

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it will be interesting to see how this changes
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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 3:10 pm Post subject:

umm

it is said to be metallurgical coal for steel making

i wonder if there is a way to use "green" leccy hydrogen to reduce ore to metal and then remove the H to avoid the brittleness etc

the metal i am playing with was made from ore/ochre using charcoal and a fair bit of hammer work which is perhaps not relevant for bulk steel

recycle is plausible rather than from ore but still needs energy and probably needs some good R and D to find new pathways to good metal rather than making spanners that snap the first time they are used

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 6:38 pm Post subject:
I believe the tech is now out there to not need coke for steel. Saw mention of it on fully charged

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 7:51 pm Post subject:

the basic chemistry is plausible, the physical and chemical properties of the product are dependent on the trace stuff from the process and the means used to produce it

the metal i am playing with is awesome and if i am correct it started as earth and trees

i have some nice metal, the 1640's mini blade was made like that, it is not as good as the 1869, 58th master metal

i have a small,wide, thin wedge with a sharpenable edge that my smithing ggg grandfather forged in the 1830's(probably for splitting sandstone into roofing material) which is very useful for many tasks and not unlike the 1869 in metal terms

the modern jacob's ladder mini cleaver is my go to kitchen and maybe single choice bushcraft tool but it is not like those
the tojiro hook and slicer knives are ace but not like that stuff
all of the latter were done with a coal start

imho the best ferrous has been done using trees as fuel and a lot of skilled hammer work

how that might work for "modern" style specialist metal or in enough bulk for basic i do not know

until there were engines driving pumps and a lack of trees coal was not much used (before circa 1800) and in top quality stuff since then wood is still best

coal has a load of trace stuff from sulphur to uranium and most of the other letters as well, not coal might be better for making bulk iron,
good steel needs good chemistry, good method and good control

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 7:55 pm Post subject:
thinking about the h issue, reduce with h and burn out with air might be not that far from coke reduce and Bessemer, then add what is needed to make nearly pure iron into the required steel

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 8:36 pm Post subject:
Now we will see if the company is genuine about mining coking coal in Cumbria,the board have had a good run of high wages so far on share capital.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 8:48 pm Post subject:
if they have bought tory backing chances are they are spivs

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 9:24 pm Post subject:
Not what i meant,floating shares on stock market and living off the proceeds i was on about,many big companies have done it. Better to mine Cumbian coking coal than import from Australia.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 9:44 pm Post subject:
do the thing is less important than trouser the cash and run

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 21 11:38 pm Post subject:
https://www.ttnews.com/articles/hydrogen-climate-alternative-steel

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 9:09 am Post subject:
there is a limited amount of met. coal but no limit to renewable H2 as it turns back into water, the energy is the limiting factor(and therefore the price) as some renewables are "over productive" at times using that for H2 does seem an option much like Al was more expensive than gold until lots of water power leccy was available but with "cheap" leccy it is cheap enough to use as packaging

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15996

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 10:13 am Post subject:

There are several inconsistencies here.

Firstly, steel needs carbon. It can contain up to 2% depending on the use, and without carbon it is not steel. Therefore hydrogen on its own cannot be used to produce steel. It can be used to heat, smelt etc. but not to produce the final product.

Coking coal has been used to make steel since the 18th century. Its use is the reason that iron and steel became possible in large quantities for the Industrial Revolution in the UK. Before that date the centre of iron production was the Weald of Kent and Sussex, as that was heavily wooded, and also had mudstone with high concentrations of iron compounds in it with chalk nearby on the Downs to produce the lime needed.

We still produce charcoal, and believe me, it is not a 'particulate free' process, even using modern equipment. The conversion rate in a modern kiln is something like 4:1 wood to charcoal, and a great deal worse using the old earth burns, which was the way it used to be done. I have attended a couple of earth burns, and while the smoke produced is smelly, unpleasant, and very thick at times, it does not act as a trigger for some peoples lung problems such as asthma, although it may others. If we returned to using charcoal rather than coke, it would seriously disrupt steel production as it also takes time and a lot of timber and wood. There were dire predictions about deforestation of the Weald in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, but it is still one of the most wooded parts of the UK as coppice rotation was practiced, and still is, to get the timber and wood.

Even if all vehicles were converted to electric, there is still the problem of brakes and tyres. They are as much to blame as anything, and as yet I have heard of no work to reduce particulate matter from them.

Sorry about the long post, but I have studied the charcoal production side, which included some information about the switch to coking coal. While I do not wish to express an opinion about this mine, I see no point in carrying a high bulk product around the world when it is available in the country where it is needed.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 10:46 am Post subject:

after carbon monoxide reduction(refining furnace conditions) a blast furnace burns out the production carbon, then you add as much as required to make the type needed
hence the development of steel rather than "iron" or wrought, ie hammer and fire carbon adjustment to make steel from a bloom billet

the modern amount of steel is not practical using trees

H2 to make Fe, then add to that to produce the required qualities of metal makes sense

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 12:47 pm Post subject:

MR, the jump to electric cars in this thread belies looking for an argument (that we've already had. Regen braking and modern tires are reducing both those particulate sources, but the comparison matters and electric vehicles from an increasingly clean grid are already going to be miles ahead of internal combustion vehicles)

Have you looked into the hydrogen processes yet?
I can't pretend that I know the details, but it seems clear that carbon isn't critical if you have another reducing agent: https://www.fchea.org/in-transition/2019/11/25/hydrogen-in-the-iron-and-steel-industry

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 12:58 pm Post subject:
And yes, I would hope we'll start having carbon available to add back in in whatever quantity needed for the final product. In other words, we need to be sequestering carbon, I'm sure there must be ways to blow what was once recently atmospheric carbon into steel

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 21 3:18 pm Post subject:
not sure about the hot metal chemistry of that where ever the C is derived from it is sequestered if it is in metal

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