pump storage, low volume high density

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pump storage, low volume high density
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Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16121

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 6:13 pm Post subject:

I hope their fluid really is as safe as they claim. I have come across too many 'wonder chemical' like CFCs that didn't live up to their promises. CFCs were developed to replace more toxic and corrosive chemicals in things like vapour cleaning and degreasing in the electronics industry where things like carbon tetrachloride were used or to replace things like ammonia in refrigeration. Sadly, they caused other problems. At least we know where we are with water.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46388
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:18 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on

yep

75% is getting a bit tired for a car but a pile of them and some fans should work fine as storage for smoothing

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:03 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply

Listen for the big splash,lol,in South Wales anyway.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46388
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:46 pm Post subject:
most places, but pumps must be plausible in some

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 5:21 am Post subject:

Car batteries are not a great solution in my opinion. They are used as the basis for most uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs) and they are something of a nightmare. For starters, they fail every five years or so, which means that when you have a large bank of them you are constantly having to change them out. They also give off hydrogen during the charge cycle, which causes obvious issues.

I've been trying to push to get lithium batteries trialled for UPS systems but with no success so far. They take up less than half the space, don't give off hydrogen, and last for many, many years. Forget all the horror stories about them exploding - this is always caused by going for the lowest bidder when it comes to procuring the control systems.

Last edited by Shane on Thu Feb 11, 21 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6639
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 11:45 am Post subject:
I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen. There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46388
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 1:40 pm Post subject:
lead acid stuff is carp(i have used it small scale but tis carp for that as well), lion ex ecocar when it gets to say 75% charge capacity would be an ace way to store energy, extend useful worklife before recycle and cut costs for having a newish battery in the ecocar

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 4:31 am Post subject:

Slim wrote:

I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen.
There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

Ah - makes more sense. When you wrote "old" car batteries, I was assuming you meant old tech

In my opinion, an even better idea is to use batteries while they're still in cars. Once EVs become mainstream, there will be millions of them plugged in whenever they are not being used. Perfect decentralised electricity storage system for the national grid!

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28251
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 7:47 am Post subject:
I agree on the questionable nature of the "fluid". Generally though I'm relaxed on how the battery problem might be solved. It lends itself to my mind at least to imaginative and long lasting solutions. There really is an abundance of renewable energy available so the efficiency of the storage solution is in the long term less important than the sustainability of it.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46388
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 8:27 am Post subject:
the paperwork says mineral so it is not organic, it needs to be fairly cheap , high solubility to give a SPG of 2.5 over water, lowish toxicity/handling issues for pr and practical reasons I might try something like sodium silicate with a few surfactants to make it flow better. just a guess for a place to start RnD

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6639
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 10:42 am Post subject:

Shane wrote:

Slim wrote:

Ah - makes more sense. When you wrote "old" car batteries, I was assuming you meant old tech

Those schemes are in the works as well!
(¿Porque no los dios?)

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16121

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 4:29 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately I think storage is going to be one of the major sticking points for renewable energy. Battery technology has come on a long way, but I think it is still slightly lagging behind. The ideal battery needs to be safe, rechargeable as frequently as possible, have a long life and be made of readily available materials which can be recycled. The ideal may not be obtainable, but if a battery uses materials which are not that common, that can be a problem long term.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6639
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 6:20 pm Post subject:

"In Boost for Renewables, Grid-Scale Battery Storage Is on the Rise - Yale E360" https://e360.yale.edu/features/in-boost-for-renewables-grid-scale-battery-storage-is-on-the-rise
Faster than anticipated battery affordability is why EVs are about to be everywhere you look as well. (And why there will be a flood of used li-ion batteries to be recycled for raw materials, or simply repurposed for grid storage projects) not to mention that it's highly likely that cars will be used as decentralized grid storage.

The grid scale Tesla battery in australia has already more than paid for itself.
The fact is that solar and wind paired with big batteries is already cheaper than new generating capacity from gas or coal in a lot of places, and the costs of batteries solar and wind are likely to continue to fall. It would be foolish to invest in gas or coal

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6639
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 21 6:22 pm Post subject:
Li-ion won't go away soon, but it is being updated. New batteries are being developed with all sorts of different approaches, and some of those may one day beat out lithium, but it'll be a while. Until, expect new growth in grid scale batteries made of lithium

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16121

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 21 4:54 pm Post subject:

Yes, certainly all makes sense. I remember when I was at college in the early 1970s we were discussing solar power, which was in its infancy then. At the time, our lecturer said that an area the size of Egypt would produce enough electricity to power the whole world. It must be a lot smaller than that now with increased efficiency of solar cells, and we have a number of solar farms around here, so it must make economic sense.

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