cleaning PV panels

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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 21 7:45 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41378-020-00197-z

Or use titanium dioxide, like self cleaning glass.

interesting, it seems to have promise at proof of concept scale

having met Iraqi dust on various bits of surplus kit, that stuff is well sticky, ditto saharan stuff that drops out of africus winds now and again.
it does require water, although less than a mop and bucket.
iirc there are 2 issues, a contant ish build up and a major dustfall from regular dust storms.

if i understand it enough, i recon it might be good for some situations, my roof for example, where there is water and mixed muck depositing at a fairly low constant rate

i am not sure if it is practical for fettling after a major dustfall or if the droplet would still be liquid by the time it ended its run in the hot sun and breeze for regular maintenance cleaning

where does the muck go? can the water be recycled?

how long does it survive when it gets sandblasted?

ps fluorine is a useful element, but it does have some huge downsides as many of its compounds are long term legacy chemicals with nasty environmental and biological payloads

it has promise but a hoover on a rail or robotruck is tried and tested tech, it can be built to deal with a steady cleaning and "snowplough time" spec

due to the thermal issues, 0 to 40 C is an average sort of day, any system on rails has some mechanical issues, robotruck has quite a lot of merit as a cleaner, it can hide in storms and snooze if it is too hot, it only needs a reasonably smooth access path and it can empty itself and recharge at central points

much easier to program than a domestic cat hoverboard vac

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 12:32 am Post subject:
Did you hear about the recent innovation in cleaning the solar panels on one of them martian rovers? They did a hail Mary and scooped more martian soil on to their own panel and that helped to shed the sticky light dust that was in the panel!

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 6:17 am Post subject:
So I should pour sand on the car to get the dust off? Interesting theory!

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 6:23 am Post subject:

Just to highlight the issue out here, this is what a few days dust build up looks like, graciously modelled by Bumblebee here:

I took a little dust off with a wet finger just to highlight the amount of build up. Not had any particularly dusty days, either - there's just a constant, slow settling of dust all the time, even on days when the sky looks perfectly clear. The stuff on the car survives my daily commute at 70 mph (ish, ahem), too.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 6:38 am Post subject:

like doing parquet flooring with damp tea leaves

that has some promise, but the abrasion thing may be an issue

roborover is usually planned for a shortish working life, a panel rig should last 20 years or more

i recon if water is essential, which it may be, a version of my vax carpet cleaner might work for the slurping head
it sprays water and vacs it into a "dirty" tank, the spinning brush loosens stuff

stick that on a robo cleaner etc

with some sensible engineering, it should be possible to separate and reuse the water with the bits concentrated and delivered to "service" points where the robocleaners get fed and fettled

this stuff is tried and tested tech, just not in combination for this job

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 6:47 am Post subject:
that is the sort of dust we bought on the surplus kit beasty stuff, oddly sticky when dry or wet abrasive as well, which is an issue for any machinery involved i recon a patent trawl might be my next move, shoulders etc but not stepping on toes is good afaik most of the places with reliable sun have also got dust of some sort

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 9:02 am Post subject:

dpack wrote:

beasty stuff, oddly sticky when dry or wet
abrasive as well, which is an issue for any machinery involved

Yep - exactly why I always clean the cars myself!

"Waterless wash, Sir?" is a recipe for paint removal by a thousand cuts.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 12:20 pm Post subject:
What is the life span of these PV panels in your area Shane given the problems with the sand?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 21 7:47 pm Post subject:

Shane wrote:

dpack wrote:

beasty stuff, oddly sticky when dry or wet
abrasive as well, which is an issue for any machinery involved

Yep - exactly why I always clean the cars myself!

"Waterless wash, Sir?" is a recipe for paint removal by a thousand cuts.

i am glad i am thinking of the right type of dust

a few observations based on " random samples from abroad"
it sticks more to some things than others, almost nowt in the ropes of helicopter nets, a black plastic water butt could hold remnants of the stuff for a couple of years in use under a spring in a temperate rain forest

some packaging not other stuff
clean metal may be immune, metal with any sort of coating maybe not(brass eyelets seemed very immune)

any sort of machine in those conditions needs as much consideration as what it has to do

electrostatic, physical, chemical and just being "difficult" all seem likely factors

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 21 4:32 am Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

What is the life span of these PV panels in your area Shane given the problems with the sand?

No idea, to be honest. They are only just starting to tinker with solar out here (unbelieveably...), and I've not had any feedback as yet.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 21 4:35 am Post subject:

dpack wrote:

Shane wrote:

dpack wrote:

beasty stuff, oddly sticky when dry or wet
abrasive as well, which is an issue for any machinery involved

Yep - exactly why I always clean the cars myself!

"Waterless wash, Sir?" is a recipe for paint removal by a thousand cuts.

electrostatic, physical, chemical and just being "difficult" all seem likely factors

Another thing to bear in mind - if the dust is mixed with water and left to dry out again, it sets hard, a bit like a breakable form of concrete. Any solution that rinses it off needs to make sure it doesn't gather in pools anywhere sensitive - mixed with leaves, the slurry is very good at blocking small-bore drain pipes when it sets, for example.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jul 15, 21 8:31 am Post subject:
that seems familiar from removing it from things re use of water may be an issue i wonder if electrostatic and air flow might be best

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 21 5:03 am Post subject:

the air is dry
the dust is very sticky
water makes it worse and has its own issues

electrostatic and suction seem reasonable

there are things to consider such as proof of concept and practical engineering

i know about vac fettling so that part would be plausible, would a decent field voltage in the "snout" get the stuff loose without harming the panel?

if you rub a balloon does it get covered in dust faster than an unrubbed one?

what an odd science question, but a simple way to learn more about this dust

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 21 9:03 am Post subject:
I can try the balloon experiment when I'm back in the field - just arrived in Blighty after a pleasant couple of weeks in Sardinia

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46245
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 21 11:56 am Post subject:

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