how to build a forest

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how to build a forest

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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 23 8:31 am Post subject: how to build a forest

one way to try to build a forest

another is send folk foraging for seeds from healthy looking trees, considering the climatic catastrophe as many varieties as poss regardless of their origins or preferred habitats seems sensible, guard trees and long growing ones, hot and wet cold and wet dry and hot etc

whatever you are starting from, the following applies

put seeds in a wheelbarrow, mix

scatter

wait, look and repeat as appropriate

thin as required, add as required or as seems suitable and available

keep at it for decades, with pauses to let nature develop or demonstrate where it needs further attention

use the developing forest to keep itself healthy, as will loads of wildlife and non tree species of not wildlife

no stakes, no plastic tubes, no watering thousands of whips or replanting most of em every couple of years

having seen lots of "stakes and tubes" plantings fail and the scatter style exceed expectations, i favour the latter
it might not tick the boxes for grants etc, but most of those grants etc are greenwashing and at best organized by well-meaning but box thinking people

it may be that the well-meaning have studied forestry rather than forest life(in the very broadest interpretations of that), tickbox schemes are designed for short term propaganda, if you want a forest start with seeds, some of them will be the successful cohort of the forlorn hope, that creates a place for others.
watch how things develop and tweak adjustments to accelerate what is happening naturally

50 years is not quite enough

plant forest as though you will live forever, try to find young folk who will do the same when you fall and feed the sarcovores of the woods

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8916
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 23 9:45 am Post subject:
I see the tree plantings...too close and regimented, all with tubes....and wonder how they will survive

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 23 11:12 am Post subject:
We use a mix of self seeding, transplanting self seeded and also buying in whips. Obviously the self seeded stuff does the best.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 23 12:13 pm Post subject:

many trees create enough seeds to cover a country in a couple of generations

most will fall on "stony ground "etc
the ones that land in a suitable habitat are usually far better suited to that habitat than a species chosen by human and put there

of the seeds i have distributed in my little forest, i recon very few have thrived, those that have are very robust trees, diverse and each in a nice spot for them and the ecosystem that is developing

if you need an orchard or cash crop fast timber whips in lines etc are perfect
a forest needs to be random enough to fit the landscape, with a bit of gather and throw a thousand years can become fifty for diversity if not for maturity

the change of microclimate and ecology between 1970 and now was not sudden, but it has had a jump since some of the earlier trees started to get to a decent size

shhh there are a few places around here that were perfect for a careless squirrel to lose his seeds
if a "land owner" digs pits every few yards to deter the travellers who have pitched there on the way to and from appleby for hundreds of years with no issues locally, on what is now green space rather than their ripe for development, the heaps are ideal for hiding one's acorns

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 23 6:39 am Post subject:

The good thing about that planting is that they are making a green corridor, but could probably be done with less effort and more effect by just fencing off an long bit of various widths and letting nature take its course.

One thing volunteers in particular do is wave the transplants around in the air, which kills the fine rootlets which are what are wanted. Looking at that transplant, it looks as if it might have gone a bit far before planing out, but not sure. If we do transplanting, we take the whip and put it straight from the ground into a plastic sack (damp hessian with a bit of damp soil will do) to keep it wet. Next put spade in ground at transplant site and move it backwards and forward to open cut, or make a T cut. Remove transplant from sack and put straight into soil lifting up and down to get roots down. Put boot next to transplant to firm in soil. We prefer deer fence, but that is down to preference and economics.

Our preferred method is natural regeneration, but we did transplant some hazel and whitebeam from our gardens (1 2 miles away, other about 15 miles) as we didn't want them in the garden and we had a nice place in the wood for them, or in one case replacing a hedge. I am hoping one day to either get cuttings or seeds from a couple of special trees in the area, so must try that to add to our mix in the planttionan area.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 23 9:45 am Post subject:

if managing woodlands and selected trees/ areas are cleared, natural regeneration seems ideal

if starting from "desert" it needs a bit of help speeding up the process, at first in order to create a woodland soil and microclimates in that landscape, after that to increase diversity and resilience

the secondary flora will arrive and will sometimes land in a suitable niche for it, it may or may not be a "native" species depending on local floras and vectors

a small aside, some things considered invasive forin species are only invasive when they have little competition from local invasive species that smother them and diverse local things that will eat them

no life form is "native" unless it evolved in that place and that place is still the same

is it native to this planet? will it form part of a diverse environment? will it outcompete everything else or be part of a complex ecosystem?
if that is yes yes no yes, tis fine to add it or welcome its random arrival

a somewhat relevant aside, considering vectors and the variety of "exotics" available in most places, a site "left to nature" is as likely to be covered in the spoils of plant collectors as "native"lifeforms
or critter transported stuff, not "native" just early colonists, at the end of the last ice they arrived in fur or guts of those seeking lichens which had flown here having been south for the "winter"

imho the ongoing climate alterations make diversity essential for any location, some things might be ok even if others are not, if they live on earth they are local afaiac

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 23 8:19 am Post subject:

We went to a Royal Forestry Society meeting on Thursday to a mainly oak wood on a very wet clay site. It is also a SSSI. One site had been clear felled having previously been Douglas Fir. Sadly Natural England (or whatever they are called this week) had insisted on the work being done out of the nesting season and immediately, which meant during a very wet winter. Apparently the ruts left were 4' deep and the work had reduced the contractor ( a rufty tufty forester type) to tears. The site had reseeded itself with birch, which sadly was regarded as most 'traditional' foresters present as a 'weed'. I was getting birch envy, but it was too far for us to go to cut sadly although would be really good for besoms. This would be the first stage in a natural regeneration system, and it is quite possible that other trees would grow among the birch and grow on as the birch died. The others were talking of replanting, but then they are not usually great fans of natural regeneration, as it wasn't taught when they studied forestry and I respect them for their knowledge and experience.

The wood was a great deal less floriferous than ours, but the oak canopy was pretty thick, so that may have been part of the reason.

We also had an ex-lecturer of our sons there who is an expert in deer management, and he was very interesting on that aspect. I suspect, although they do a fair bit of culling there, that there are still too many for development of new trees by natural regeneration.

Ted Green, who is famed for his studies of veteran trees, and also at RFS meetings for trying to start arguments, was also there, but failed to get anyone to rise to even his more outlandish statements as we all know him too well. He made some very good points as always, but took them a bit far in most cases as usual.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 23 7:57 pm Post subject:

imho if a place needs "opening up" taking a few selected trees here and there works better than taking the same amount from one spot

better than taking to be tidy, for "conservation" just drop 'em and leave them for the wildlife, or even leave 'em standing, but ring barked beyond healing above the lower circle
some will coppice from that, many wont either way it diversifies a patch

following "the approved ways" to check the tickboxes really misses the point in many examples

if it aint site specific it aint right

probably the biggest issues are planning for a very unknown future climate and interdicting those who want the world to fit their tickboxes, whatever those may be

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 23 8:46 pm Post subject:

a slightly wild card

it might be some places are best stewarded with controlled burning or re/introducing critters like beavers

site specific for now and hopefully later

the real biggy is it might be perfect for site specific now and the conditions of the last few hundred years, but what has the best chance of working well for as long as possible?

if it involves the government or a committee or a company you do not control...... best of luck

even if you do have full control now, predicting the future is a bit brave

my little forest is part random, a bit planned, it is doing whatever its thing is and i hope it will outlive me.
the location and landscape gives it some resilience to people and climate extremes

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 23 6:04 am Post subject:

Our policy it to allow natural regeneration. The ones that succeed are the ones that are adapted to today's climate. When they seed the one that make it are going to be the ones adapted to the climate then and so it goes on. Those who planted for an eastern Mediterranean climate some years ago are likely to have lost the lot by now.

I would agree about site specific and really knowing the ground. As you say, controlled burning can be useful, beavers can be useful, but it does have to be very site specific. Neither of those would be any good in the wrong place.

There are advantaged to taking out the timber. It gets used for a start, and the saying is 'a wood that pays is a wood that stays'. In our area most of the woodland we have lost has gone for housing as the price for the land is higher if they are built; in other areas historically in particular, a lot has been grubbed out for agriculture.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 23 8:13 am Post subject:

i see the point of selective extraction to make forest management sustainable
that was my plan for a mature pit prop plantation i was offered for free 25yrs ago

take some as timber to cover the price of clearing patches and establishing a more suitable flora for the future

local politics(the owner had upset the posh locals by living on her land cheaply when they had paid lots to be on that hill) added a layer of difficult that made it seem an unattractive gift

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 23 7:09 am Post subject:

Sadly woodland gifts like that often are. In our case we have a pretty mixed flora already, both flowers and woody ones. In most cases we are just thinning the beech as it grows as the crowns expand into the open spaces in the canopy, but we have cut out one or two clearings in the 'mixed hardwood' plantation which are being colonised by a variety of species. We have transplanted a few hazel and hornbeam from our own gardens (2 and 15 miles away), but otherwise, no planting.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 23 1:09 pm Post subject:

i just had an odd thought while looking at 4 very nice sloes on the desk

perhaps blackthorn smothers rhododendron

the big one that i want to remove is in a place where blackthorn would be an asset for bold pickers and stick collectors, not in the way or painful to any normal folk or mutts

pattern bombed with bletted sloes is a lot easier and cleaner than a drill and poison

i like blackthorn, it is quite robust at smothering competition by growing through it from the edges

maybe belt and braces

what do you think?

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 23 6:55 am Post subject:
It might work, but not sure. We have a bit of blackthorn in the wood, or at least some prunus sp., but it doesn't seem to outcompete other stuff. We are on chalk though, and rhodi is a plant of acid soil. Lime doesn't do it any good, so an alternative might be to heavily lime round it repeatedly. Otherwise repeated cutting will eventually kill it, but rather labour intensive.

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