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gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8918
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 24 5:58 pm Post subject:
The pylons are similar too those carrying power from Scotland to Ulster

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 24 9:25 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

According to Behemoth these pylons are finally going to start appearing soon:

https://www.nationalgrid.com/national-grid-energise-worlds-first-t-pylons

I presume these new T pylons won`t go near residential area`s as the buzzing would be a problem,most likely underground cables then.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 24 11:09 pm Post subject:
Why would buzzing be a problem? They’ve been testing them for something like 10 years

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15967

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 8:08 am Post subject:

Buzzing is a problem in some ways if you live very near them as we do. We have a power line that virtually crosses the front of our garden and does if the wind is in the right direction. Personally, having lived in an area with a lot of 'traditional' pylons for many years, I don't find them particularly offensive. We also have one in our wood, and it causes us very little trouble, although it buzzes in damp weather.

The only problem we have had with it was that when they changed the cables, they made a real mess of things. It started with the work being contracted out and very little contact with us. They changed major contractors part way through, and I am not sure how many layers of sub-contractors there were. We ended up having to liaise between all the layers as nobody seemed to tell anyone anything. They were quite happy to cough up for 'meetings', but didn't want to pay us to clear the site as we were instructed to by the dormouse surveyors, or put deer fencing round the newly planted hedge to keep people from walking through it. They told me they could tell us how to protect it for less; so I got a bit difficult with them. Think it resulted in using all the letters after my name which I only do when cross.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9881
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 10:02 am Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Why would buzzing be a problem? They’ve been testing them for something like 10 years

do the new ones not buzz then? As the ones we have now certainly do. Before I bought my current place, we considered another house, but there was a very close pylon and the buzzing was very noticeable and intrusive - and that was over the sound of the nearby road.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 10:21 am Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

tahir wrote:

Why would buzzing be a problem? They’ve been testing them for something like 10 years

I've no idea, I'm asking a question. We've got two sets of (small) pylons that run through our land and they very rarely buzz

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 10:59 am Post subject:
Considering these T pylons are 1/3 of the height of traditional pylons and they buzz in damp weather,these low ones are bound to buzz and sound louder.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9881
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 12:15 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

I've no idea, I'm asking a question. We've got two sets of (small) pylons that run through our land and they very rarely buzz

oh I see - well I suspect it is about location and conditions. I think the buzzing happens more in higher humidity so perhaps it is less often heard in the drier South East of the country? And then it is about how close it is to your garden/ home and how sensitive you are to the sound. In my experience they always buzz. But I live in the wetter South West.
There is a place we like to go walking and you can hear the buzzing of the powerlines long before you see them - when we emerge from the forest to the long stripe of land cleared of trees for the pylons marching over the landscape. It's not a problem for me there, of course... I mean I would rather they hadn't cleared all that forest and I dislike the buzzing sounds, but I also want the electricity. It is what it is.

More pylons are essential, but they don't come without problems. How big a problem that is depends on whether they are right next to your home/ public amenities or not, and the installation and maintenance can result in cutting of trees and disruption.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 12:16 pm Post subject:

I can't see any data out there, but from the one meaningful academic article that I could find the pylons use low noise conductors:

"Impact case study (REF3)
Reach and significance
i) Environmental benefits from novel designs UoM work on composite insulator reliability [1,2] and its application [3] enabled NGET to
accept wide-bodied silicone insulators onto its lines as a standard product. Type-approval
regimes and design capabilities developed by UoM enabled the novel T-Pylon design, shown in Figure 1 [A]. [Text removed for publication]. The new design has reduced the environmental impact of the line, and will enable the connection of the new GBP20,000,000,000 Hinkley Point C Power Station, with reduced impact on the community and environment. This connection is a key part of the government’s plan to reduce carbon emissions and will help deliver power to six million homes [E]. An NGET commissioned ‘willingness-to-pay study’ shows the benefit provided by the T-pylons is valued at between
GBP12,000,000 and GBP39,000,000 [F]. [Text removed for publication].
Figure 1. First T-Pylons erected as a trial in 2015 by Balfour Beatty at Eakring The UoM work on composite cross arms [3] directly led to NGET’s programme of tower upgrading, using retro-insulated cross-arms. NGET have committed to a GBP9,000,000
research programme (commencing early 2021) to develop an innovative method for uprating overhead lines, allowing the voltage on 275 kV overhead lines to be increased to 400 kV [C]. NGET predict “uprating lines in this way could allow 45% more power to be
carried on some existing routes and support significant reductions in UK CO2 emissions – 39,000 tonnes. This could deliver up to GBP286,000,000 of efficiencies to consumers…”
[C].
NGET have used the framework developed in [6] [Text removed for publication]…and resulted in the Award for the Built Environment Category in the 2015 IET innovation awards [G].
ii) Improved operating procedures
In 2019, Balfour Beatty was awarded the GBP214,000,000 contract to deliver the new T-pylon overhead line at Hinkley Point [H]. [Text removed for publication].

iii) Informing investment decisions
Low-noise conductor designs can be up to five times more expensive than standard
conductor designs. However, the UoM research [6] demonstrated that the selection of these
conductors significantly reduces the risk of adverse audible noise impacts in noise sensitive
locations. [Text removed for publication].
3M also acknowledge the value of the UoM research measurements. Following the trials conducted as part of the NGET funded research [6], NGET selected the 3M ACCR (Aluminium Conductor Composite Reinforced) composite overhead conductor because it
was quieter than comparable conductors."

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 12:21 pm Post subject:
The construction footprint is vastly less, so much less green space needs to be cleared and concreted to build one of these compared to traditional ones. Much less materials used too.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9881
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 12:47 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

The construction footprint is vastly less, so much less green space needs to be cleared and concreted to build one of these compared to traditional ones. Much less materials used too.

that's good

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 1:50 pm Post subject:

From the manufacturers website:

"Due to the unique aluminium-based material and surface finish of 3M ACCR, this noise is reduced. As well as doubling the transmission capacity of the line, ACCR is much lighter than standard conductors and has half the thermal expansion, meaning less sag at high energy levels. All these factors make it the ideal choice for any electricity infrastructure project.”

As far as I can tell these are being deployed on all overhead lines as they are upgraded because as stated above "they double the transmission capacity of the line".

This appears to have been verified in tests by the University of Manchester - so plenty of room for improvement in all parts of the grid

Pretty much my whole beef with the government is rather than accelerating R&D in these areas OR investing in utility scale electricity storage OR encouraging reduced consumption OR discouraging the biggest polluters (frequent flyers, drivers of stupidly inefficient cars) they are politicising Low Emission Zones whilst encouraging greater exploitation of fossil fuel resources (through absolutely crazy amounts of subsidy)

Soooo much can be done but the narrative needs to change, done sensibly the transition to clean energy benefits all, the crap that they're doing now makes the rich richer.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 24 6:51 pm Post subject:
thanks for the tech stuff, if the wire is a bigger price but carries twice the energy so is only 2 1/2 times more expensive....... it performs better so will need less maintenance, we need to shift leccy in bulk asap personally if it led to more "green harvest" and less pollution they can pop one foot in the yard, runner beans do not get too tall, do they?

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15967

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 24 8:37 am Post subject:

if they are not as tall, how do they cope with hills? The one in our wood is at the top of a hill and the next one is at the bottom of a hill. We are able to grow hazel coppice under the line at present, but if they are lower, nothing will be possible under them. The actual footprint of a pylon is not very large. It requires 4 concrete pads about 1m square and as long as there is access for someone to climb it, vegetation grows under the actual pylon. At present, there is the buzzing in damp weather, which is fairly common although not all the time, with us. The other problem is that since they changed the old ceramic insulators for the glass looking ones, when the wind is high in certain directions we get a harmonic from them.

It is the actual installation and major work on them that causes disruption, not the pylons themselves. We have lived with them for the last 40 years, and not had any problems apart from those I mentioned.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 24 9:45 am Post subject:
Erect more pylons i presume.

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