Could your boiler help save the planet?

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Could your boiler help save the planet?
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mrutty

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1578

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 04 2:05 pm Post subject:

Just had to phone my father for advise on this. He says that the service charge should be the same regardless of type and that all types should be serviced once a year unless it's a high heat oil burner or a non domestic.

On the new boilers turn the burner down from 6 to 3 or 4 as this is a bit like heating a small saucepan on full heat, a lot of the energy can be lost around the sides. The turning down does mean it will take longer to heat the water hence they appear to be more cost effective if switched on for longer.

We had a new 'condensing' boiler fitted by a local heating engineer as my normal one was away. With no prompting my normal engineer came to look at the new boiler and it's the same one he's getting

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 04 8:47 pm Post subject:
One thing I should point out is that the condensate drain on a condensing boiler is often routed through the wall to an outside drain. In the boiler we had removed the drain pipe sloped at 45 deg. This froze solid a couple of times even when lagged. After a little research I found it is advised to fit them to an inside drain so I would advice this is done if you live in a cold area.

lazzasurf

Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: wolverhampton

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 05 12:22 am Post subject:

i have fitted a couple and they are no harder to fit, service or repair than a normal system or combi boiler.. infact they do not need stripping down to service like a older boiler, all we have to do is test the products of combustion with a taragon tester by sticking a probe in the flue for 5 mins. its only if the products of combustion exceed a set limit will it need stripping down for a "hoovering"..

taragon test = �60.
taragon test then needing a service=�100.

its 1 big scam to keep jobs for the boys..

as for the post above with a freezing condense pipe, i think the pipe is the wrong size, have a word with the installer..

energybook

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 10
Location: UK

Posted: Sat May 07, 05 6:18 am Post subject:

Not sure I agree with many of the comments above. My company ALHCO works for social landlords across the UK. we service and maintain applinaces in 100,000 homes. Here are a couple of views.

All landlords have to have their gas instalations checked by law every year - this is because people were dying of carbon monoxide poisening. whilst we are there we service the boiler and this will aften improve efficiency, etc. We also advise on how to use the system, set the clock and thermostats, etc. Al this lowers the energy consumption.

Would you leave your car un serviced and use a twenyty year old car if you were using it almost 365 days a year?

The new boilers are much more effiecient, smaller, etc. They will last longer and do not contain asbestos as the old ones did.

Many people in this county are fuel poor - they can't ford to heat their homes because their old boiler or electric heating is too expensive to run. Modern high effieciency boilers help this problem - why? because they are much much cheaper to run.

Pop into your local currys and have a look at the fuel effiecncies of new ovens and tell me that the old ones are better.

The only argument against this is if the old boiler - max life 15 years, is working well then perhaps the whole environmental impact of replacing it before it gives up the ghost is more. Check out the energy saving trust to find out more.

My company website talks a little more about legislation etc. if you want a look

www.alhco.co.uk

Regards

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Sat May 07, 05 7:57 am Post subject:

A few comments about replacing the boilers based on the experience of friends and myself.

Often your old gas boiler cannot be insured after it is 10 years old by companies claiming they cannot get the parts. Found out parts are freely available and should be for 15 - 20 years.

If you replace a boiler every 10 years you are often quoted �2,000 or more! A power flush costing about �500 is often recommended which IMHO is often not needed.

If you can keep your boiler going for 20 years then you have at least �200 more to spend on fuel each year. Are modern boilers that more efficient? You would have to be spending �1,000 a year on gas.

Yes you would be saving some gas but then how much energy has been used to make a new boiler, open cast mining for copper & iron etc?

I have also had to have a modern boiler replaced after a year as it was badly designed, installed and rubbish!

Which leads me to another point, why are there no details published about reliability of makes and models? You can get plenty of details about how one is more efficient by 0.1% but frankly that's useless if the boiler will need to be replaced sooner than the less efficient one.

However, I'm very interested in more green energy so I'll be taking a look at your site.

energybook

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 10
Location: UK

Posted: Mon May 09, 05 3:30 pm Post subject:

Many thanks for the reply. I agree that it is often very expensive to replace the boiler. But you do not have to get all the money back in one year. You are just spending the money a year or two earlier. So for a �2000 system and 20 year life you only need to save �100 per year - plus the savings on the boiler not breaking down - or otherwise!!

On spare parts you are right most parts are available and it's the economics of fixing it rather than the availability - again it's a bit like old cars. The bits are there but you have to go to a specialist and not every one stocks them.

My company looks after about 100,000 central heating systems many are very old!!!!

On reliability it is a little difficult as other parts fail such as the pump and controls - sometimes they are inside the boiler sometimes they are not.

I will look into whether we can publish some stats on breakdowns - I guess the boiler makers will not be happy.

Green energy is the answer!!

Haddock

Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Marburg, Germany

Posted: Mon May 09, 05 7:30 pm Post subject:
We have a condensing boiler (German) and it gets serviced every year. The man checks the flue gases etc and everything is great. It's more complicated, it has electronics and I guess it keeps more service engineers empolyed. The exhaust gases are cleaner, and it is more efficient. That for me is arguement over.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Mon May 09, 05 7:43 pm Post subject:

I was told by an installer the condesning boilers only run at their stated efficiency when running for long periods. So you are encouraged to leave 'em running which uses more enerygy.

I also thought their lifespan is a liitle unknown due to the condensate being corrosive.

I'd love to go back to a wood burning stove that does the heating. Sustainable, I can maintain them myself and quite easy to run.

JKLawrence

Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 14

Posted: Tue May 24, 05 8:34 pm Post subject:

We have an oil-fired condensing boilder from Ecohometec (Swiss) installed in 2001. It breaks down regularly (usually twice a year, now getting more frequent). It does seem to be remarkably fuel efficient, but its efficiencies are ruined by the number of days we have to switch to electric heating and hot water until the engineer can visit. And services are now inexcess of �200! The boiler gets clogged up and needs a proper clean each time to get it working again.

It may be that this is just a bad manufacturer, or it may be that condensing is inadvisable for oil - after all, there must be some reason why there are so few oil-fired condensing boilers on the market. There is no gas pipeline to our house, and no plans for one.

Reading the posts here, I feel even less certain what to do. I'm looking into wind and solar, but the former probably couldn't do our heat and hot water, and the latter isn't cost-effective. I'm also looking into replacing the boiler with a new one (all are condensing now) from a different manufacturer. I've considered getting a Rayburn, but I don't think it could do heating for the whole house. I've even thought about wood-burning stoves - but I rather doubt we could cope with that route.

What would you do in my shoes?

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Tue May 24, 05 11:38 pm Post subject:

JKL - dunno what your situation is so hard to advise. BUT -
you say the boiler is "clogging up"
- if you mean the exhaust through the condenser/heat exchanger, I'd wonder if there might be a difference in spec between the oil you are using and what the manufacturer expects.
- but if its the burner jets that are clogging up, then it could be that something as simple as a better filter might be the answer...
I'd try and get accesss to the Swiss tech people, who would likely take it as a matter of pride that their product should work brilliantly. But you'll need to be able to explain *exactly* what the problem symptoms are.

As to alternatives (or more likely, compliments), solar hot water is the most economic and most generally accessible "renewable". But solar is unlikely to be sensible for *space* heating - maximum need occurs when solar availability is minimum.
If you have a wood fuel resource, that route would make sense. If you want a range, you can get one with a "backboiler".
If you already have underfloor heating pipes installed, AND a nearby patch of ground (oooh, bigger than a tennis court) that can be seriously 'dug over', (or a lot of water !), then a ground source heat pump can be economic against oil.
If you have an exposed site, and could get away with putting up a biggish wind turbine that too might pay off - but we are talking about a big one, say 5kw, rather than a single 1kw Windsave...

Now, the thing is that you don't have to "put all your eggs in one basket" - you can use something called a "thermal store" (basically a big super-insulated hot water tank) to tie together different heat sources - say solar, wind and wood, with oil being used for a "top up" only when necessary. And you could plan and design for the addition of, say, a backboiler on a range or woodburner at a later date.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Tue May 24, 05 11:42 pm Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

I was told by an installer the condesning boilers only run at their stated efficiency when running for long periods. So you are encouraged to leave 'em running which uses more enerygy.

*Any* equipment will only deliver its best under optimum operating conditions!
But, make no mistake, a condensing boiler will *always* extract more heat from a given quantity of fuel than a non-condensing boiler.
The essence of a condenser is that it has an "after cooler" which extracts useful heat from the hot gas that a conventional boiler would waste.
Because of that, the exhaust gas is quite cool - rarely more than 60C, from a condenser. A conventional boilers exhaust can be as hot as a baker's oven - 200C. Hot exhaust = heat being wasted.
Its that simple.
But to get *even* better efficiency, condensing boilers have two more features: a gas valve that can be part open (rather than just 'on' or 'off') and a very simple microprocessor controller (we are talking less potent than a Sinclair ZX81, never mind a Spectrum). The controller looks at the temperatures of the inlet and outlet water and the exhaust, and adjusts the gas valve for best efficiency. In that way instead of running flat out for, say, 3 separate 10 minute periods in an hour, the condenser would indeed run continuously but at less than 'half throttle'! This does not "use more energy".

Treacodactyl wrote:

I also thought their lifespan is a liitle unknown due to the condensate being corrosive.

Sadly, early British condensers seem to have been made with too little respect for the condensate. And "the trade" would have you believe that still applies to all condensers - it ain't so. But it is the case that the best made products are unlikely to be the cheapest...
Personally, I'd be more worried about obsolescence because of inability to obtain replacement electronic parts than corrosion.

JKLawrence

Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 14

Posted: Wed May 25, 05 12:23 pm Post subject:

dougal wrote:

if its the burner jets that are clogging up, then it could be that something as simple as a better filter might be the answer...
I'd try and get accesss to the Swiss tech people

Thanks for your reply, dougal. I'm not sure, but I think it's the burner jets. I confess I've only whinged to the engineers - I might try Ecohometec's UK MD first, and if that doesn't help, I'll try the parent company.

As to the alternatives you mention:
- yes, we do have a big lawn that could do for a heat pump - but we don't have underfloor heating (have thought about it)
- we are very exposed (avg windspeed over 6 m/s), with a possible location out of sight, so a large turbine is an option
- we have a small woodland, with good conditions for coppicing, so a woodburner would be practical

Quote:

Now, the thing is that you don't have to "put all your eggs in one basket" - you can use something called a "thermal store" (basically a big super-insulated hot water tank) to tie together different heat sources - say solar, wind and wood, with oil being used for a "top up" only when necessary. And you could plan and design for the addition of, say, a backboiler on a range or woodburner at a later date.

Sounds ideal for our situation, given that we have lots of options - but we don't have the resources to pursue them all at the same time. Do you know who in the southwest designs these sorts of systems?

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed May 25, 05 12:27 pm Post subject:
There's loads of people in the south west, a good place to start looking is in the AECB's member list: https://www.aecb.net/findmembers.php

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed May 25, 05 12:47 pm Post subject:
Just a quickie - I believe the repeat of Grand Designs C4 9pm tonight 25/5/05 is of the Irish chapel conversion - with a ground source heat pump installation. I seem to recall a biggish building with solid stone walls (lots of heat required!) and a l-a-r-g-e amount of ground being buldozed to bury the pipes... (I did wonder... chapel... graveyard? )

fonant

Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 24
Location: West Sussex

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 05 11:33 pm Post subject:

dougal wrote:

But to get *even* better efficiency, condensing boilers have two more features: a gas valve that can be part open (rather than just 'on' or 'off') and a very simple microprocessor controller (we are talking less potent than a Sinclair ZX81, never mind a Spectrum). The controller looks at the temperatures of the inlet and outlet water and the exhaust, and adjusts the gas valve for best efficiency.

Our new condensing gas boiler is fantastic! The variable heat input (it's a modulating boiler in tech-speak) means it starts at full whack, and then gradually slows its fan(*) as the water heats up, meaning the gas usage and heat input is always just right. In use this means it has power to spare, so the heating comes on nice and quick in the winter, but the boiler can make itself "smaller" once the house has warmed up!

A major plus point is seeing the steam coming from the boiler exhaust as you get back home from a cold walk in freezing weather - a very welcome sight

(*) our boiler has a clever gas regulating system using a pressure regulator to get the gas at (or slightly below?) atmospheric pressure, and a venturi in the air feed to the burner fan. Very much like a carburettor in a car. Fan speed pulls in air, which then sucks in the right amount of gas.

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