Poisonous honey

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Poisonous honey
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Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 3:07 pm Post subject:
A plant that poisons its pollinator wouldn't survive as a species so I very much doubt that the pollen or nectar is toxic. I know stick insects like privet!

arvo

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 3321
Location: Somerset

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 3:38 pm Post subject:

Does Ted Hooper mention it? I know there's a massive spoddy section in the book about what plants give what colour pollen so you can tell what they're browsing. Not read the Hooper for ages though so I can't swear, but I'm sure he doesn't talk about anything making your honey poisonous.

While we're on the topic of poisonous honey, under what circumstances could you wind up with botulism in it? (health visitors seem obsessed that your kids if under 12mths will catch it from honey)

I always understood that the sugar levels in honey were so high that it was essentially anti-septic.

goosey

Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 380
Location: Merry England

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 3:42 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

As it is such a common plant I can't see how it could be as I imagine it will be found in just about everyones honey.
I'vI know I have a neighbor only 150m as the bee flies with a privet hedge that flowers & e been taking my honey for 20+ years with no ill effect.
Not sure if they take the nectar or pollen again I imagine if it was toxic they would leave it well alone.

If you're ok after 20 years, that's good enough for me

goosey

Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 380
Location: Merry England

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 3:46 pm Post subject:
arvo, I know what you mean, didn't it used to be put on wounds .? It keeps the germs out, so I read once. Don't know about botulism, someone will though

goosey

Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 380
Location: Merry England

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 3:56 pm Post subject:
On the other hand, just because it doesn't harm bees, it doesn't mean it won't harm humans. They aren't making it for us.

Effie

Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 1087

Posted: Thu May 07, 09 8:31 pm Post subject:

arvo wrote:

While we're on the topic of poisonous honey, under what circumstances could you wind up with botulism in it? (health visitors seem obsessed that your kids if under 12mths will catch it from honey)

I always understood that the sugar levels in honey were so high that it was essentially anti-septic.

Ooooh, now this I do know something about. Now I can't answer the exact question, but I did read that honey as a botulism carrier risk came up in a quite old study (I think it was 1930's US) but can't be sure as this was ages ago when I researched this re kiddo.

Now they tested a whole shed load of stuff, and the risk at that point was by no means greatly more significant than things such as the lids of certain drinks bottles and some other quite mundane food related items. Well, not wanting to damage industry, the implication as I took it was that honey ended up as a bit of a scapegoat, and the risk was quite exaggerated. I believe that other EU countries ignore the below 12 months thing and don't suffer frequent peadiatric botulism.

(I am pretty sure I remember all that right, but can't be totally sure)

Edit : I've just has a quick flick of academic papers. One figure gives US infantile botulism cases as 1/3 related to honey. Apparently 6-10% US honey samples test + for botulism and it's present in about 20% of soil samples. Living in a rural location + having parents who work in contact with soil increases risk of infection. It's quite interesting actually.

Woodburner

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 2904
Location: Essex

Posted: Fri May 08, 09 9:25 am Post subject:
If we stopped eating everything the press has reported as being harmful, we'd have died out long ago from starvation!

Ginkotree

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales

Posted: Sun May 10, 09 6:16 pm Post subject:

We have just had a lovely afternoon here with the local bee keepers and I was able ask Maureen about the privat again.

The flowers do make poisonous honey but if it diluted with lots of other flowers it is only slight The bees will only go to it if they are really hungry or there is no choice, in some places privat is the main plant and thats when you have to watch out.It is not poisonous to the bees.
The bees love sycamore and if there are lots around it can give the honey a green tinge, it is the concentration of one plant species that counts on how the honey is affected.

When I was a nurse 30 years ago we used honey a lot in hospitals.We would use what was called Honeytulle, gauze soaked in honey that came in flat tins which was very precious .It would be layed over the wound making sure it came into contact with the sore.As it was moist it was easy to remove when changing the dressing. It was almost miraculous in healing open wounds as it helps granulation, forming new cells under the skin layer and then helps the skin to form,while staying sterile.A dry dressing was put over the top.
We also used to use egg white and oxygen for bed sores.Put a meringue on your bottom,the extra protien would aid healing it was thought.
I loved the old fashioned nursing
.

Ginkotree

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales

Posted: Sun May 10, 09 6:17 pm Post subject:
Just realised I said privat instead of privet

toggle

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 11622
Location: truro

Posted: Sun May 10, 09 6:35 pm Post subject:

Ginkotree wrote:

manuka honey is now used for such things

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15461
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Sun May 10, 09 10:39 pm Post subject:

Ginkotree wrote:

The bees love sycamore and if there are lots around it can give the honey a green tinge, it is the concentration of one plant species that counts on how the honey is affected.

Is it the sycamore itself they like, or do they milk the aphids that live on it?

TheGrange

Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Posts: 874

Posted: Sun May 10, 09 10:47 pm Post subject:

Ginkotree wrote:

When I was a nurse 30 years ago we used honey a lot in hospitals.We would use what was called Honeytulle, gauze soaked in honey that came in flat tins which was very precious .It would be layed over the wound making sure it came into contact with the sore.As it was moist it was easy to remove when changing the dressing. It was almost miraculous in healing open wounds as it helps granulation, forming new cells under the skin layer and then helps the skin to form,while staying sterile.A dry dressing was put over the top.
We also used to use egg white and oxygen for bed sores.Put a meringue on your bottom,the extra protien would aid healing it was thought.
I loved the old fashioned nursing
.

when my showjumper had an horrendous wire cut to his fetlock we used maggots at one point to clean the wound (an old medical method) and honey to reduce granulation, the wire cut was through to the bone and the vet gave us some ointment to put actually on the bone,,, i must admit i'm squeamish with the inside bits but the honey made it easy to change the dressings

beean

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 254

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 09 10:18 am Post subject:
My trusty Ted Hooper book refers to Rhodedendron Thomsonii occasioanlly producing nectar which can produce poisonous honey (as the water evaporates from the nectar, the concentration of the toxins is higher), so only the honey is toxic, to both bee and beekeeper (if you eat enough). It seems to take a very particular set of circumstances which would be profoundly unusual to encounter.

Ginkotree

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: south west wales

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 09 3:06 pm Post subject:

beean wrote:

My trusty Ted Hooper book refers to Rhodedendron Thomsonii occasioanlly producing nectar which can produce poisonous honey (as the water evaporates from the nectar, the concentration of the toxins is higher), so only the honey is toxic, to both bee and beekeeper (if you eat enough).
It seems to take a very particular set of circumstances which would be profoundly unusual to encounter.

Is that the rhodedendron that is all over the place and being got rid of now?

beean

Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 254

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 09 12:22 pm Post subject:
The rhodedendrons that try to take over the world - purple flowered ones - are rhodedendron ponticum. I don't know much about Thomsonii. I've heard ragwort honey is not toxic, but absolutely disgusting, unless you leave it for the smell to go (in which case you might as well eat sugar syrup!).

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