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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429
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 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 05 3:34 pm Post subject: |
 
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| monkey1973 wrote: |
But you don't cut a cow's leg off and grow another cow. |
No, you take a tissue sample and add in a set of chromosomes from an adult into a new embryonic cell, culture that for a while and add it to a parent.
Rather like taking a tissue sample from a plant, dropping the end in hormone rooting powder with fungicide, rotting that in pompost (a massively un-natural medium for growing plants) or water (even odder), and potting up before planting out. That ain't natural, you know.
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The practice is surely a good deal more complex than that and presumably involves a lot of trial and error on our part. At what point will we know we have got it spot on? |
Well, it is and it isn't more complex. In essence, in terms of what's happening, it's simpler. In terms of actually doing it it's way more complex.
When will we know if we've got it spot on? Why do we have to have it spot on, and what do you mean by 'spot on' anyway? I'm not sure I agree that such a question is meaningful. Are you referring to animal welfare, safety, edibility, or what? |
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monkey1973
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 683
Location: Bonnie scotland
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monkey1973
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 683
Location: Bonnie scotland
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 05 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly?
I don't think we should be cloning animals to populate the food chain. We've seen a massive reduction in species/strains numbers in crops, so that we've eliminated a huge amount of natural variation, that gives protection against a huge amount of natural predation/disease/damage. To combat this we're trying to GM crops. Wouldn't we have been better off having a range of strains? To add to Cab's metaphor, yes, lightbulbs are better than gas mantles and candles, but ask yourself if that's going to be true if we only had lightbulbs? And the elecricity runs out? I can only see it as benefitting the industrial farmers, rather than helping out the mass of smaller scale farmers, here or abroad.
Is cloning animals bad? Well, not totally. It gives rise the (potentially far-fetched) possibility that we could bring back extinct species (that we may or may not have wiped out), or help species where there are such small breeding pools that natural survival isn't going to happen.
Would I eat cloned meat? Probably not, simply because of my ethical concerns above. I'd consider it safe, but I'd not be happy eating it.
That said, you know, if you fancy doing some on your small, ethical farm, I'll happily sell you the kit for DIY cloning. (Prof Winston uses our stuff, as do the guys at Newcastle, and Dolly the sheep was from our gear too!) After all, a sales target is a sales target.  I believe RobR was going to make a GenePacker100 Dexter at some stage...
I'm not particularly vocal or motivated about it, but you did ask. I shall refuse to be drawn into a heated debate, however, as it's not a major issue for me. |
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex
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Nick
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 05 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| monkey1973 wrote: |
Clearly, I do not have an understanding of the science behind cloning and I agree that my question regarding "getting it spot on" doesn't have an answer but that's kinda why I asked it. When mucking about in this manner, at what point do we decide that it's safe, and how do we ever really know it is. We can't possibly know that, can we?
It may not be a good comparison but it was previously deemed acceptable practice to feed cows back to cows and looked where that ended up. |
That's a perfect example; it's one in which I personally was aghast. It wasn't transparent, it wasn't well thought out (ask ANY microbiologist), it wasn't in the consumers interest in terms of quality, barely was it worthwhile in terms of cost, and in respect of animal welfare it was insane... But more important than any of that. oral transmission of BES and nvCJD by means other than syringing masses of material down an animals throat in a very artificial way has never, ever been demonstrated.
For all manner of reasons, the practice wouldn't have passed the tests that I personally lay down before buying meat; it still isn't convincingly dangerous, though.
As for how safe cloned animal products have to be... Well, for me there has to be for me to be happy to eat them, there has to be at least a theoretical reason why they oughtn't be. We're eating genes in food all of the time; it doesn't really matter what we eat, we take in DNA in staggering quantities with every single mouthfull. If we're eating something cloned, if the parent was safe to eat, then the progeny are safe to eat; they are genetically identical, so if the animal has not been raised in an environment that would make it unsafe to eat, then we can eat it. |
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429
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Andy B
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 3920
Location: Brum
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cab
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 05 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| NickHowe wrote: |
I don't think we should be cloning animals to populate the food chain. We've seen a massive reduction in species/strains numbers in crops, so that we've eliminated a huge amount of natural variation, that gives protection against a huge amount of natural predation/disease/damage. To combat this we're trying to GM crops. Wouldn't we have been better off having a range of strains? To add to Cab's metaphor, yes, lightbulbs are better than gas mantles and candles, but ask yourself if that's going to be true if we only had lightbulbs? And the elecricity runs out? I can only see it as benefitting the industrial farmers, rather than helping out the mass of smaller scale farmers, here or abroad.
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This is why I'd always say we should evaluate every potential application on its own merits. If a proposed cloned animal has benefit, great, if it doesn't, well, back to the drawing board. Same goes for GM plant crops.
| Quote: |
Is cloning animals bad? Well, not totally. It gives rise the (potentially far-fetched) possibility that we could bring back extinct species (that we may or may not have wiped out), or help species where there are such small breeding pools that natural survival isn't going to happen.
Would I eat cloned meat? Probably not, simply because of my ethical concerns above. I'd consider it safe, but I'd not be happy eating it. |
Lets suppose, for a moment, that the last few herds of Gloucester cattle were wiped out in another outbreak of foot and mouth. Lets say there's only one bull left, and he's past his prime. Suppose someone suggested cloning him, thus saving this excellent beef breed. Would you eat his grand children? I would.
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That said, you know, if you fancy doing some on your small, ethical farm, I'll happily sell you the kit for DIY cloning. (Prof Winston uses our stuff, as do the guys at Newcastle, and Dolly the sheep was from our gear too!) After all, a sales target is a sales target. I believe RobR was going to make a GenePacker100 Dexter at some stage...
I'm not particularly vocal or motivated about it, but you did ask. I shall refuse to be drawn into a heated debate, however, as it's not a major issue for me. |
Heck, I don't see this being a heated debate here at the moment; The most enthusiastic pro-cloning person here is me, and my own stance isn't so very far from yours (yours, if I may summarise, is a qualified no, mine is a qualified yes). |
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