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Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 20 4:15 am Post subject:

dpack wrote:

back the leccy things, i recon the tech is now available to be carbon zero in use, the carbon industry will continues to resist it and he who pays the piper etc.

Yep, although I reckon we may approach a tipping point when ICE cars are phased out in the next decade. With millions of electric cars plugged in when they're not in use, you've got a massive, massive distributed power storage system that is a game changer for managing the variable output from some renewable technologies.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16134

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 20 6:18 am Post subject:

Not to mention the logistics of providing the power and also distributing it. And of course don't forget that we are all supposed to heat our houses completely using electricity and cook on it too. No other form of heat or cooking allowed; until there is a power cut. Having been a teenager and young married in the 70s we don't trust any centralised system and much prefer to be as self sufficient as possible. It might mean ending up as the local soup kitchen, but prefer that to not having the wherewithal to cook or heat.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 20 3:12 am Post subject:
That was my point - with electric cars plugged in all over the country, you have the potential for the ultimate decentralised system! At some point, we have to stop using hydrocarbons as fuel, either because we're all boiling alive/drowning/being blown away by cyclones, or because they've run out.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16134

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 20 8:18 am Post subject:

We have the potential to decentralise, but there is the problem of generating the electricity. Yes, it can be done with solar panels on as many houses as possible, and I do know someone that runs an electric car and has solar panels, so probably net zero electricity use, but most people don't have that, so there will always have to be some centralised generation and distribution, although we will be less reliant on large oil companies.

Sadly, from the 'coal face' of the firewood and charcoal market I see the large oil companies trying to take over, with government backing, from the small producers. These large companies often import firewood and charcoal, using fossil fuel, and to the detriment of local woodland management, so trying to carry on the same routine, but looking 'green'.

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8987
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 20 11:29 am Post subject:
I see "kiln dried" firewood advertised around here, I can understand that they don't want the stock sitting around slowly drying as it is capital outlay. However it does seem to defeat the object of using wood as a fuel

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46396
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 20 5:21 pm Post subject:

Shane wrote:

That was my point - with electric cars plugged in all over the country, you have the potential for the ultimate decentralised system!

At some point, we have to stop using hydrocarbons as fuel, either because we're all boiling alive/drowning/being blown away by cyclones, or because they've run out.

run out might be neglected after the other options if they kick in first, there is a fair bit of fossil carbon if the price is right but if no one can buy it etc

we could add deoxygenation and acidification leading to anaerobic microbes ruling the seas and being a "little gassy" with hydrogen sulphide(permian end event)

tis a bit of boiling frog issue at the mo for those who could alter the future and too late for those who can not.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16134

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 7:07 am Post subject:

There are various ways of 'kiln drying' logs. To some extent our log store acts as a solar kiln if we just put small amounts in there as there is good air movement and quite a lot of sun. That is the only really 'green' way of dealing with it. Someone we know also uses the heat given off by their charcoal kiln to dry wood, which is something we would like to do, but haven't worked out how yet.

One alternative is burning waste, which can be sawdust, odd bits that aren't any use for anything else etc. and using the hot air to dry the wood. This of course produces the same smoke as if you were burning the wood in a green or wet state, so just moves the problem to somewhere else.

The only other way to dry wood is to use gas, electricity or other mainly fossil fuel. If there is a downturn in house building, then the kilns used to season wood for that can be run to dry firewood, but still usually using a good part fossil fuel, which as you say, rather defeats the object.

According to the legislation wood takes 2 years to season and dry. This is not true, as even split oak can take a lot longer, and if you leave silver birch with the bark on for that length of time it will often be rotten. Ash and some other woods will dry a lot faster, and even beech will be faster than this if it is cut to length and split.

One method of producing gas that is now becoming popular is anaerobic digestion. I have been thinking for years that rather than landfill, it would be an advantage to utilise waste to produce gas. That and the heat and power stations seem to be a step in the right direction as well as the cleaner alternatives of solar, wind and water power of various sorts.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46396
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 9:03 am Post subject:

re drying/seasoning

it depends what it is as to what it needs

even in a temperate rain forest most wood can be made useable and tidy to burn with no more than an axe, air, shelter and time, split seasons best for firewood

i try to go for dead standing if possible as it is already seasoned as firewood and just needs drying

some woods will burn green and clean, most need maturing suitable for their nature

iirc i have seen some very neat charcoal, dry firewood, use the spare heat systems for all sorts of purposes, there is some way of integrating what you need.
the wood gassify thing hairyloon told us about might be an ideal way to get mechanical power for fans etc to move spare warm air where it is needed

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46396
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 9:08 am Post subject:
ps i can get fresh cut, big, willow to burn, tis a struggle and very messy to a burner pipe hammer and wire brush after one day

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 10:29 am Post subject:

Quote MR One method of producing gas that is now becoming popular is anaerobic digestion. I have been thinking for years that rather than landfill, it would be an advantage to utilise waste to produce gas.

These started off on big farms to extract the Methane from the slurry and the digestate was then spread on the land which was a good thing to make use of an energy,but these systems have taken another route where companies owning these digesters are taking thousands of acres of grass,maize and other crops to feed the digesters.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46396
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 10:31 am Post subject:
yep the big ones need a very "boring" diet and do not cope well with mixed forage

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 11:38 am Post subject:
It just seems to be avoiding the object of it all to me,at least with slurry its on site,but given the large machinery that it takes to harvest and transport these crops to a digester its just another subsidised green washing exercise.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6645
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 20 11:44 am Post subject:
I agree with you. It started here with large dairies and then the manure would go back on to fields post digestion. Now there's a large operation trucking food waste from long distances which doesn't make sense to me. Growing crops specifically for digestion will likely fall away as unviable imho

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16134

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 20 7:46 am Post subject:

Certainly agree on that. Imo any large scale thing is likely to use more fuel than it produces. Slurry, household waste that would otherwise end up in landfill, fine. Growing crops for digesters, the same as importing or carting biomass for power stations where it is burnt just wastes transport.

The problem is Dpack that the people writing this legislation don't understand that ash for instance burns clean even when fresh. It has to be under the magic number of 20% moisture content, or it will produce particulate matter and be 'dangerous'. Re willow; I think although it is full of water, it will dry quite fast, so if you can get it cut to manageable lengths, cut and split and stack covered, it will be ready for use quite soon.

We are thinking of a way of utilising the heat and the gas from the kiln for wood drying and possibly charging a battery or running a generator to power equipment we need to use in the charcoal bagging.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46396
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 20 5:26 pm Post subject:

ash is one of my favourites

re the 20% thing a resin rich knot out of a punkwooded well rotted pine might pass the moisture thing but it is not smokeless

one size fits all is silly

re willow cut 6" sections of trunk and split em to brick size they will dry fairly fast if ventilated
big bits are unlikely to dry well unless you are after cricket bats and diligent for a few years

as a charcoal thing willow is among the best drawing charcoals if you can get the burn right on good* sticks

there is an awesome mark up compared to bbq charcoal

niche market but an oil drum might be worth a grand or so if it is top end material

*finger and thumb thickness coppice sticks iirc is the size to use for 1/8" and 1/4" product
i am not sure about bark on or off when prepping a bundle for toasting
i have no idea of the burn details, but they are probably available

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