winnie the pooh might have been onto something

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winnie the pooh might have been onto something

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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 23 9:03 am Post subject: winnie the pooh might have been onto something

efferlump traps

those who study such things are often lacking in practical experience

the time taken by a palaeontologist to butcher a beast with a sharp stone is probably far longer per ton than taken by a Neanderthal butcher(most tribes have specialists and the rest join in as required)

beast to jerky size strips needs everyday skills and fitness that academics usually lack
i recon the conclusions re tribe numbers might reflect that

make a beast into moveable chunks using the anatomy is efficient, folk who know how are rather good at moving big things, using sharp stones needs more practise than most modern humans have, preserving meat is an exotic thing to most modern humans who have no idea of the assorted subtleties of techniques for different cuts and expected "shelf life"

my estimate , 4 fit adults, 4 competent adults, a few nimble finger kids
less than 10 days for a jumbo jumbo to be in bits and far enough into the preserving process to stop the rot while the meat is still safe and pleasant

did they drop them in cold weather? if so no rush, get what you can while it jumbo is still warm, make it into big bits, let them freeze in a safe place and process them by the fire at leisure

get under the skin of a jumbo jumbo would need a lever as well as a sharp stone, wood and ropes etc don't really get into the record, so most of the handling tools are not considered

these folk were pretty good at medicine, could make very effective hunting weapons, and were rather sophisticated compared to a modern human put into their world, i recon a bit of butchery may have been as normal as shopping and opening a ready meal is to many today

having seen academics trying practical stuff from their specialization, many might underestimate the capabilities of our ancestors by quite a bit

approach things from the direction of how it is still done by a few folk, e.g. a whale is bigger than jumbo, might be one place to start re gross butchery and logistics of a big critter by a smallish group
ditto one person can do a big bear fairly efficiently

it must be possible to find a few stone butchers, a few movers, some nimble fingered kids and a dead jumbo in a similar pit and give it a go

ps if there was a knapper in the team to create and maintain sharp stones it would be almost as fast as using metal tools, sharp wood pegs are as good as metal hooks, even i can make rope out of quite a few things, even i can suggest how to use wood levers, "trees"etc

put a grandad and grandma on comfy chairs with their fiddling tools and wise advice, surrounded by kids doing nimble fingered stuff and singing funny jumbo shredding songs while they learn how to do it

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 23 12:05 pm Post subject:
If I recall correctly from the guiding manuscript, the trick is in placing the cunning trap where the heffalump will be, only just before they get there, about a foot ahead of it or so

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 23 3:29 pm Post subject:

very not suitable for work

huntin

i put that up as chase can be from the bait side of the equation rather than driving the prey, bait only needs one

if they caught them in holes, running along a well-placed log could easily bamboozle a cross efferlump onto the hole cover

in not too sure they would "drive" unless you set the world on fire or shook a mouse at em
startle them, they might panic and run, but they would still need directing to a stopping point where they are less dangeroos to convert to dinner

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 23 2:29 pm Post subject:

I would certainly agree that most modern humans don't have the skill of our ancestors in any one of a number or things they used to live, work etc. Perhaps the estimate of the number of people needed to butcher a carcass is between the two estimates; perhaps a few families. No reason to think that Neanderthals didn't live in either extended family groups or a few families living together. It struck me that winter would be a good time to kill the animals as they last longer, although digging a pit trap would have to occur before that so the ground wouldn't be frozen, and of course it would take a long time.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 23 4:18 pm Post subject:

in a suitable place, a pit trap only needs maintenance to keep it working

just using the landscape with a few bamboozling tweaks is even simpler

if they used tangle dangle mangle or strangle with string and wood etc, modern clever folk would be unlikely to find the evidence

a concealed pit or swamp might show from the assorted leftovers of long term use
a big log with spikes that fell out of a tree when the beast touched the string trigger would leave no trace

considering the ancestors who were clearly nursed with skill over decades, i do not underestimate the sophisticated nature of Neanderthal society . ditto the few bits of "artwork" and "adornment" that have been found

the hunting javelin that was turned up fairly recently was used as a pattern to make new ones to try out, a good modern thrower with one adapted quickly, and the thing worked well for accuracy and terminal ballistics

another big hint as to how sophisticated they must have been, they inhabited assorted climates and landscapes, most of which would kill the average modern human quite quickly

have a look at the "ladder" cave painting

art or instruction manual?

an aurochs rather than a jumbo

funnel it to the loop pinch point is one fairly obvious interpretation of the diagram

as clear as an O S map and "survival guide" diagram if you chose that interpretation

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 23 8:21 am Post subject:

It is now known that Neaderthals were far more sophisticated than once thought, and that as they interbred with Homosapien all of us have some Neanderthal DNA. It is thought this makes us resistant or more liable to some infections.

I would never underestimate the skills of our ancestors. My own attempts at old skills have shown me that they gained them over many years and probably by teaching from older people.

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