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tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:27 am Post subject:

Slim wrote:

The answer isn't in the middle if we are considering climate

Exactly, deaths due to flooding and wildfire in Europe this week.

Just to add, obviously the Tesla has neither used oil nor had any oil changes during it's life, that's a pretty big environmental benefit on its own.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:36 am Post subject:

Slim wrote:

Don't forget to try to get median as well as mean.

The answer isn't in the middle if we are considering climate

I think I meant median...

but we do have to be careful with the idea of making and buying new things to protect the environment - sometimes 'making do' is better. And will differ from person to person and their circumstances.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:43 am Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

sometimes 'making do' is better. And will differ from person to person and their circumstances.

It is indeed, but as a species we are obsessed with buying the latest thing. We use iPhones at work, we will always change batteries and screens until the point that there is some real functional reason to upgrade. They're a quality product, my current one must be 7 or 8 years old, but I know a lot of people that upgrade with every new release.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 1:11 pm Post subject:
The difference with buying EVs is that they save so many emissions that it is worth getting functional old ICE cars off the road preemptively.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 2:08 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

(fiat e500 much more likely than a tesla!)

Loads better options than either of those

the advantage of a fiat 500e is it would fit in the space I have next to the house. only just at that. stone walls either side.
what do you have against the fiat? or is it just that other models are better

I think the mokka might suit more of my needs, if I can work out how to charge it as parked in the lane is a distance from the house... any thoughts on this car?

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 2:11 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

sometimes 'making do' is better. And will differ from person to person and their circumstances.

with this in mind I did wonder if people will upgrade their EV battery rather than a whole car in the future - might well be the way to go but could change the secondhand market drastically.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 2:13 pm Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

what do you have against the fiat? or is it just that other models are better

The only really good ones (at normal prices) from European manufacturers are the VW/Skoda/Cupra stuff. There's plenty of Chinese and Korean options, I'd look at them first, but depends when you're in the market. Things are moving VERY rapidly

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 2:17 pm Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

with this in mind I did wonder if people will upgrade their EV battery rather than a whole car in the future - might well be the way to go but could change the secondhand market drastically.

This is what I would want to see, at the moment not easy to do, but this is where governments should be getting involved NOT in pushing back electrification dates.

I'd imagine most EVs have the potential to do a million miles on the same gear apart from the battery although some people have racked up a lot of miles, a friend of mine with a 2015 Tesla has almost 300k miles on it same battery pack and motor.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 7:24 pm Post subject:

most governments are owned by fossil(basics)

will the consumers please breed in the interests of the economy(old crusty meme, preferably with a 1950s "perfect" family and a huge collection of consumer goods in the graphic)

owt that works for us and maybe does less harm is a thing that works for us

i have stopped worrying the little stuff, "green" is often the most efficient way but if i need to i can be ruthless and be less than "green" with available tech etc

some "green" is almost pointless and difficult, some is a good life used well

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 7:33 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Things are moving VERY rapidly

a point that cannot be emphasized enough.
A 2024 BYD Dolphin which is the current main offering at a cheap price in the UK might still be a great car in a couple of years if you only care about it doing its job as a car.
But on other levels it will look like a Trabant. The competition is really heating up.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 24 10:24 am Post subject:

Battery claims
The following link is to the complete list of claims I have been compiling.

https://martindavidwalker.blogspot.com/2024/09/battery-claims.html

The new claims in the last week are as follows.

September 22nd 2024, imec claim high energy density lithium metal batteries compatible with existing manufacturing processes
The detail though suggests 3 times the cost of where I suspect LFP batteries are getting to right now and a 100 cycle life. That translates to 30,000 miles before a BEV battery hits serious degradation.
https://www.imec-int.com/en/press/lithium-metal-battery-novel-solid-electrolyte-achieves-1070-whl-through-cost-effective
September 22nd 2024, BMW teaming up with Redwood on battery recycling
Batteries are fill of valuable materials the recycling industry will grow. Possibly the story here is that the recycling industry can influence manufacturing to gear to recycling. One elephant in the room is Tesla 4680 battery packs that are fill of “goo” making them practically impossible to repair and more difficult to recycle.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/09/20/bmw-to-get-battery-recycling-support-from-jb-straubels-redwood-materials/
September 21st 2024, Lithium Vanadium batteries claimed to be better than LFP
Boston startup Pure Lithium is replacing Nickel and Cobalt in cathodes with vanadium which is relatively abundant.
https://www.mining.com/vanadium-is-the-new-battery-cathode-chemistry-says-pure-lithium-ceo/

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 24 9:53 am Post subject:

Battery claims
The following link is to the complete list of claims I have been compiling.

https://martindavidwalker.blogspot.com/2024/09/battery-claims.html

The new claims in the last week are as follows.

September 29th 2024, Hyundai promises cheaper LFP battery production
The article alludes to the much touted $100 per kwh figure that was meant to mark production price parity with ICE cars, and puts the 2023 cost at $139. But both BYD and CATL have talked about prices halving in 2024 which would put current costs at $70.
The Hyundai process which eliminates a production step is a promise of another cost reduction.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/09/27/hyundai-cooks-up-a-low-cost-ev-battery-scheme-for-the-affordable-ev-of-the-future/
September 26th 2024, General Motors to produce CATLs 6c charging battery in China
This is a life line for general motors whose sales have collapsed in China. News on this battery that can fully charge in 10 minutes has been around since June, but now we hear it will be in cars in 2025.
https://carnewschina.com/2024/09/26/general-motors-to-produce-ultra-fast-6c-charging-ev-in-china/
September 25th 2024, cheap iron chloride cathodes
The revolutionary material, iron chloride (FeCl3), costs a mere 1-2% of typical cathode materials and can store the same amount of electricity.
The cost of their whole battery system is 30-40% of current LIBs as no Nickel or Cobalt is used.
The technology is pitched as being less than 5 years from commercialisation.
https://news.gatech.edu/news/2024/09/22/new-battery-cathode-material-could-revolutionize-ev-market-and-energy-storage
September 23rd 20202, Lechanche launch long life battery with niobium based anode
The claim is a 10,000 life cycle battery suitable for heavy duty mining applications.
https://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/leclanche-launches-xn50-worlds-first-li-ion-commercial-cell-featuring-echion-technologies-xnor

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 24 1:18 pm Post subject:
regarding monitoring the cost of charging your vehicle - is it standard to have some app etc method to keep a tab on the cost of charging, or does it just get lost amongst the other fuel bills? I've had a couple of people tell me that their EV costs very little to run, but when i asked how much, they didn't actually know, I had kind of assumed it would be recorded somewhere.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 24 4:54 pm Post subject:
Octopus current rate is 23.27 p/kWh, so my car (58kW) would cost £13.50 to fully charge, that's 200-235 miles depending on the weather/speeds etc.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 24 5:42 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Octopus current rate is 23.27 p/kWh, so my car (58kW) would cost £13.50 to fully charge, that's 200-235 miles depending on the weather/speeds etc.

it's more I assumed there would be a record of what it actually cost.. how much you actually spent charging your EVs over, say, a year. It's not that I need to know your personal figures, I was just surprised that it isn't being automatically recorded somewhere..
I personally would want to know how much of my bill related to the house and how much to my vehicle. Perhaps that is the bookkeeper in me.

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