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jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 24 10:32 am Post subject:

Battery claims
The following link is to the complete list of claims I have been compiling.

https://martindavidwalker.blogspot.com/2024/09/battery-claims.html

The new claims in the last week are as follows.

September 7th, Wartsila releases new grid storage battery.
This is in the list almost because it isn't very interesting and that serves to highlight the growing commoditization of grid level batteries.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/09/05/wartsila-releases-new-utility-scale-battery/
________
September 6th 2024, Group 1 unveils potassium ion battery
I have found little technical material on this, but they say it is being sampled to cell manufacturers. Batteries free of lithium, nickel, copper and cobalt are clearly a good thing. The release places energy density at between 160 and 180wh/kg on a par with older LFP batteries.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/group1-unveils-first-potassium-ion-battery-in-18650-format-302211876.html
______
September 5th 2024, Nio signs worldwide battery swap partnership deal

The fact that companies continue to pursue battery swapping as a solution is interesting. But like we have petrol and diesel coexisting there is no intrinsic reason why battery swapping shouldn't have a place. A swappable battery can still be charged without swapping and swapping has a number of potential advantages.
You don't own what is the expensive point of failure in an EV.
You should be able to choose battery size, only swapping to a heavier battery when needed.
If you can't charge at home it's the familiar solution to ICE drivers.
It would be a bit faster than even very fast charging EVs.
The merits of these points are very debatable, but hey people will pay £500 to go to an Oasis gig!

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 24 5:21 pm Post subject:
one two new car market, but they will be used in a year or two

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 24 6:26 am Post subject:
There are deals out there, a top of the line mg5 can be had new for under £20,000 now.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 24 10:05 am Post subject:

The following link is to the complete list of claims I have been compiling.

https://martindavidwalker.blogspot.com/2024/09/battery-claims.html

The new claims in the last week are as follows.

September 15th 2024, Catl launch 1.5 million km bus batteries
These batteries have a 10 year 1 million km warranty and are projected for a “service life” of 15 years which I feel might be misinterpreted as some kind of time limit on battery life where really it's a projection for a battery clocking up more than 1 million km.
https://cnevpost.com/2024/09/14/catl-launches-battery-electric-buses/
September 14th 2024, fly wheel storage goes live in China
No one has crunched the numbers here, but especially as it is the first of its kind I suspect it would have been expensive.
This though symbolises the problem of competing with fossil fuels in a market economy. Fossil fuel may be cheap at point of use, but the hidden costs are incomprehensibly high, the literally destruction of the eco system.
But despite this we demand renewables to be cheaper than fossil fuels.
https://www.ess-news.com/2024/09/13/china-connects-its-first-large-scale-flywheel-storage-project-to-grid/
September 11th 2024, Japan roll out 2.4 billion in domestic EV subsidies
If any final admission was needed, then this is it. The future is with batteries, everyone including Toyota with any clue knows this.

https://autodrive.com.bd/posts/japan-rolls-out-2-4-billion-in-domestic-ev-subsidies
September 11th 2024, Ilika goliath solid-state battery prototypes demonstrate superior safety.
Solid-state prototypes that are being sampled to OEMs.

https://www.ilika.com/latest-news/goliath-prototypes-demonstrate-superior-safety
September 11th 2024, Panasonic to begin mass production of 4680 battery cells
It's important to remember that 4860 is just a specification like saying an AA battery. The real questions will be how much? And how good? In comparison with what Tesla is able to do with its thus far problematic 4860 production.

https://thedriven.io/2024/09/11/step-change-panasonic-to-begin-mass-production-of-4680-ev-battery-cells/

September 9th 2024, Envsision produces the highest energy density grid storage battery
Grid storage batteries continue their journey towards commoditization. A lot of people think that Tesla will continue to make massive profits from grid storage, but I fail to see how long term.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/09/09/envision-pushes-energy-storage-density-to-new-highs-with-8-mwh-20-foot-container/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 24 10:11 am Post subject:
https://cornishlithium.com/company-announcements/cornish-lithium-and-helm-ag-sign-mou-for-the-development-of-uk-lithium-supply-chain/ Cornish Lithium signs deal with Helm AG

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 24 10:29 am Post subject:

I'm reminded of the claims by Toyota that there isn't enough lithium flying in the face of all the mandates and all the people that think there is clearly enough lithium.
It is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of truth and lies.
I tend to see two distinct camps of people.
There are those that have gone down the rabbit hole of not believing anything they don't want to believe.
But also if you see group who take piss out of the former a dreadful conformity a desire to be in a believable world where there actually are no conspiracies.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 24 11:42 am Post subject:

My BIL had an argument about the Gaza protests with my wife on Friday, we've been on quite a few of these marches so know from first hand evidence that there are all sorts of people at them, including a LOT of Jews. According to him (who's never been) there's been loads of trouble, pro Hamas chanting, police officers injured etc.

When challenged to produce proof "you need to look beyond the mainstream media" is the response, so yeah some randoms on Facebook or whatever have "the facts".

Look at what Trumps doing, facts are not important

Oh and in that vein I was talking to my brother about his Tesla the other day. It's 8 years old, never been serviced except for 2 brake inspections (optional), never had brake pads or discs (regenerative braking), and he says it's lost about 10 miles of range since new (the overinflated fictional range was 250 miles but he used to get 160-180 miles when new).

God knows how much money he's saved vs diesel or petrol in that time, would have had at least 6 services by now, a premium brand main dealer service must be £400.00. No clutch required, no brakes and discs, cheaper fuel, no road tax....

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 24 1:08 pm Post subject:
how much did he pay for his tesla back then? just interested in a comparison with a same sized ICE vehicle.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 24 2:09 pm Post subject:
£65k, I guess in the same territory as a Merc S Class, BMW 7 series or Audi A8

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 7:27 am Post subject:
I certainly know that there is work on the spoil heaps from the china clay industry in Cornwall because I have seen them. Not sure of the scale, but large enough to warrant reasonable sized plant and mining of the spoil heaps. Cornwall used to be known as the major source of a number of minerals, but 'cheap' sources elsewhere in the world killed the industry.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 9:06 am Post subject:

tahir wrote:

£65k, I guess in the same territory as a Merc S Class, BMW 7 series or Audi A8

so perhaps it is an economy for those (in the position to ) and intent on purchasing new premium vehicles.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 9:23 am Post subject:

I think it was an economy for say someone that bough a Renault Zoe at the same time at the other end of the market. Its not about the actual cost, it's relative cost.

Over 8 years an ICE would have depreciated at the same rate as an equivalent EV (apart from a Leaf with a knackered battery), cost more to fuel and maintain, obviously there would have been tax benefits too.

I just checked on webuyanycar, they'll give him £12.5k for it now.

You can make this a wealth thing if you want, but it's really not. There are now plenty of brand new pretty decent EVs that you can buy for sub £20k, pretty much the same as an ICE equivalent.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:18 am Post subject:

sadly i think wealth will always come into it because to be economical, you need to be able to charge the vehicle on your own home. and that is the select few.

We need early adopters to develop the mainstream, and we need buyers of new cars to create second hand cars, but it isn't a position everyone can afford to take.

I wonder what the mean average purchasing price of a car is to the uk public - I will attempt to find out. Certainly most of the people I associate with would struggle to find 20k for a car and most would need finance which is definitely part of the money equation.

I'm not asking questions to make a point, I am attempting to be informed. Mostly, it seems people are completely for or completely against EVs, whereas I am sure the answer lies somewhere in the middle and is variable depending on each individual case.

its good to know your brother's Tesla would still fetch a reasonable amount of money - I find myself put off completely by Musk supporting Trump... so even a second hand car has a sort of association! but as you say, there are other smaller makes and models, things have changed a lot just since the beginning of this thread! I'm convinced I will get an EV, eventually, but i want to be informed about my choice. (fiat e500 much more likely than a tesla!)

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:20 am Post subject:
Don't forget to try to get median as well as mean. The answer isn't in the middle if we are considering climate

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45668
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 24 10:24 am Post subject:

Nicky cigreen wrote:

(fiat e500 much more likely than a tesla!)

Loads better options than either of those

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